No, the post offers absolutely nothing, what state would the forum be in if every time someone posted something we didn’t agree with we all simply wrote rubbish, more rubbish etc. Maybe expand on why you disagree and not simply right rubbish.
Poll: Austrian Grand Prix 2019, Spielberg - Race 9/21
- Thread starter Shimmy
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No, the post offers absolutely nothing, what state would the forum be in if every time someone posted something we didn’t agree with we all simply wrote rubbish, more rubbish etc. Maybe expand on why you disagree and not simply right rubbish.
Soldato
What are you on about? I am not referring to the collision or the rights and wrongs of it, I was specifically replying to your comment where you say he went wide to straighten the corner, when in fact he didn't go wide enough or slow down enough to do so.
Soldato
If you look at posts throughout the forums, not just this one, there are many instances where some have replied with one word. Again, some posts deserve a one word reply. In my case, i thought it deserved that one word reply as that is exactly how i felt about the post. Its not a matter of being infantile as you suggested. If i need to expand on my thoughts i will do so. Just like in this post.
Soldato
Listened to the 5live Chequered Flag podcast earlier, the post race review. General consensus there was that Verstappen should have been punished for not leaving a car's width, with the previous lap's encounter highlighting how much more exciting it is when drivers leave each other room rather than running them off of the road. I'm in agreement there, however currently glad the results stands to not bring in more despute.
What I really hope is that the rules around what is and isn't allowed are more solidly defined going forward. I'd love to see more racing like that first lap when they were side by side, encourage drivers to not run others off of the track at the first opportunity. As they said on the 5live podcast, how are we ever going to see something like the classic Villeneuve-Arnoux battle if drivers are allowed to run others off the track when side by side?
What I really hope is that the rules around what is and isn't allowed are more solidly defined going forward. I'd love to see more racing like that first lap when they were side by side, encourage drivers to not run others off of the track at the first opportunity. As they said on the 5live podcast, how are we ever going to see something like the classic Villeneuve-Arnoux battle if drivers are allowed to run others off the track when side by side?
I disagree. It's not a tickling contest. They are racing, and Leclerc was played perfectly by Verstappen. He left room the first time, lulled Charles into a false sense of security, and next lap closed the door. Personally I think its a great example of out thinking the other driver, and using the rules to your advantage.
It's great racing, shows race craft, and don't for one second fall into the "poor Leclerc" trap. He would do exactly the same in the same circumstance. Now we have a nice meaty rivalry to watch between them going forward.
The great battles will come later when they are both fighting again knowing the history of previous encounters
Ok, as to not drag this out in this thread I will say this. If you want to join in the disccussion then please follow the following in that we will not accept posts such as rubbish/more rubbish, if you want to discuss/debate the topic in question then atleast put a counter view to it.
If you would like to discuss your posting style further please feel free to post in FCD.
Soldato
I'm surprised Max wasn't given a penalty, but the stewards have spoken, may they long be consistent in their judgements until the next race incident.
Austria, like some other races this year, had three DRS zones. This is what made it "more exciting" along with differing tyre strategies.
I'd really love for there to be an opportunity to see the other size of the DRS coin, remove DRS completely from a race such as Monza, with it's long straights. Let's see just what a shambles the current aero and long/wide car design rules are for "the pinnacle of motor racing."
Austria, like some other races this year, had three DRS zones. This is what made it "more exciting" along with differing tyre strategies.
I'd really love for there to be an opportunity to see the other size of the DRS coin, remove DRS completely from a race such as Monza, with it's long straights. Let's see just what a shambles the current aero and long/wide car design rules are for "the pinnacle of motor racing."
Soldato
Ok, no problem
Soldato
I disagree. It's not a tickling contest. They are racing, and Leclerc was played perfectly by Verstappen. He left room the first time, lulled Charles into a false sense of security, and next lap closed the door. Personally I think its a great example of out thinking the other driver, and using the rules to your advantage.
It's great racing, shows race craft, and don't for one second fall into the "poor Leclerc" trap. He would do exactly the same in the same circumstance. Now we have a nice meaty rivalry to watch between them going forward.
The great battles will come later when they are both fighting again knowing the history of previous encounters
I guess we'll agree to disagree to an extent then!
I'm all for stern racing, but I'd rather it be over the space of multiple corners. Rather than just the first time they're side by side the guy on the inside pushing the other off of the track. For sure Charles was naive to leave the door that far open, especially to then do exactly the same thing on the second lap! I'll be happy if the Stewards just stick to a consistent approach - atleast that way we wouldn't have to listen to the "pushed" driver complain on the radio to their engineer!As for "using the rules to your advantage" - I need to reread the actual rules here. It's clearly a grey area - or there wouldn't have been a steward's enquiry for a few hours.
Soldato
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The difference between 'hard racing' and cheating (in so much as breaking the rules) was clear here to me.
If max had been half a car in front on the drive out of the corner I would agree leclerc should have conceded.
But they were side by side to the extent they banged wheels. As such it was incumbent on Max to keep a cars width between him and track limits. He did not do that.
Open and shut case of crowding another driver off the track. If there was a wall there Max may well have ended both of their races with that move.
But of course if there was a wall there im sure max would have left room like he did in every other lap of the race. It was a dirty move and these instances going unpunished will ultimately damage the sport. Theres no doubt max is a great driver which is what makes it worse for me. He didnt need the dirty move so why do it? It adds a certain element of intention that says to me it wasnt anything to do with understeer - but an intentional move to ensure victory at any cost.
I think the idea of a hard barrier vs a run off area being a deciding factor in whether the rule is properly applied is simply conflating track limit type with the rule book, which shouldnt really be happening with this particular rule in my view.
The stewards have been wrong footed by canada and the expected backlash from max fans at the track should they reverse such a momentus win for max.
Momentus or not - he deserves a penalty (in my view). It would be bitter for max, sure. But maybe next time he will hold his nerve and make the pass cleanly and fairly in future. He certainly has the talent and theres plenty of other examples of 'hard racing' within the rules in plenty of other races.
If max had been half a car in front on the drive out of the corner I would agree leclerc should have conceded.
But they were side by side to the extent they banged wheels. As such it was incumbent on Max to keep a cars width between him and track limits. He did not do that.
Open and shut case of crowding another driver off the track. If there was a wall there Max may well have ended both of their races with that move.
But of course if there was a wall there im sure max would have left room like he did in every other lap of the race. It was a dirty move and these instances going unpunished will ultimately damage the sport. Theres no doubt max is a great driver which is what makes it worse for me. He didnt need the dirty move so why do it? It adds a certain element of intention that says to me it wasnt anything to do with understeer - but an intentional move to ensure victory at any cost.
I think the idea of a hard barrier vs a run off area being a deciding factor in whether the rule is properly applied is simply conflating track limit type with the rule book, which shouldnt really be happening with this particular rule in my view.
The stewards have been wrong footed by canada and the expected backlash from max fans at the track should they reverse such a momentus win for max.
Momentus or not - he deserves a penalty (in my view). It would be bitter for max, sure. But maybe next time he will hold his nerve and make the pass cleanly and fairly in future. He certainly has the talent and theres plenty of other examples of 'hard racing' within the rules in plenty of other races.
Soldato
If Charles went even wider he would have all 4 wheels off the track before max crashed in to him.
The thing is it was a tight hairpin, for Verstappen to have left Leclerc room he would have had to heavily compromise his exit speed, which he did the previous lap when Leclerc came back at him. Whereas Leclerc is exploiting the run-offs by just keeping his foot down knowing that even if Verstappen doesn't slow to avoid a collision he doesn't have to slow himself to himself avoid causing a collision. If there was some kind of deterrent like gravel or a wall Leclerc would have HAD to accept he was beaten and give way otherwise the only possible outcome was going to be either a collision between cars or Leclerc running off the tarmac and being heavily compromised in terms of time lost, even with run-offs Leclerc couldn't win outside the stewards room which is what we're trying to avoid? I agree about crowding and using your car as a weapon like Vettel does so blatantly on straights but my problem with this situation is, Leclerc was only really alongside Verstappen because the run-off provided him with a safe, easy escape and possible way to win via the stewards if Verstappen didn't heavily compromise himself to give way. There's been incidents before where drivers have been criticised for "sticking their noses in vanishing gaps" and losing a front wing wrecklessly, well this is a similar situation but because of the run-offs there is absolutely zero risk to Leclerc and everything to lose for Verstappen in the stewards room. Leclerc has to take some responsibility for not recognising the danger of a move even if the danger has been largely removed by bad/super safe circuit design.
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Soldato
https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/248958/verstappen-vs-leclerc-at-the-austrian-grand-prix
Two good videos there.
Two good videos there.
100% agree. Honda's first win, Redbull's home race influenced the outcome (probably). Max mentions that "Charles drove into me" - righto.
Max does not need to resort to dirty racing tactics. Seemingly thrives on creating this persona of being the 'hard man' others fear - dolls it out and then moans when the outcome does not go his way.
It's a shame Charles failed to win, no doubt one for the memory bank and a lesson.
Soldato
If the racing was any good Charles would have come back at him and this would have been a proper battle and thoughts of penalty long faded. The truth is Max had the better car that day, the pass was inevitable and that's that.
The racing is all defensive and sure that's an exciting part of it, but once a car has got past its game over. The slower cars can't follow and the faster cars struggle to stay close so we end up having stewards intervene because mid corner battles get a little scrappy. Once that car is past there's no comeback if a move isn't clear cut.
I hope 2021 brings so me common sense. Sure there's some rose tinted glasses about the past, but it's become quite artificial with DRS, inconsistent tyres and fuel flow limits. I love the genius of F1 but we need less reliance on the factory winning races and more on the drivers.
The racing is all defensive and sure that's an exciting part of it, but once a car has got past its game over. The slower cars can't follow and the faster cars struggle to stay close so we end up having stewards intervene because mid corner battles get a little scrappy. Once that car is past there's no comeback if a move isn't clear cut.
I hope 2021 brings so me common sense. Sure there's some rose tinted glasses about the past, but it's become quite artificial with DRS, inconsistent tyres and fuel flow limits. I love the genius of F1 but we need less reliance on the factory winning races and more on the drivers.
Soldato
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I agree and disagree. Im not sure max had the better car - he had fresher tyres though. On one hand I like the tactical element of tyre deg, but on the other I feel its gone too far and become too specific in terms of operating windows.
I agree the pass was inevitable and easily within his reach. Which is why I dont understand Max's move. But I try and remind myself he is a 20 yr old driving a multi million pound car in the pinacle of motorsport. Perhaps it was just a moment of frustration borne from lost opportunity at the start of the race. Max wanted to deliver for the team, particularly at this track.
Max is hungry. He has the talent but I think he still needs to temper that with patience.
Easy for me to say in my armchair though!
Leclerc could have gone deep and tried to get on the power early as Verstappen was compromised by being on the inside and having to take a tight line, if Leclerc makes some room for himself and gets on the power early he might be 5-10 yards behind Verstappen coming out of the hairpin but he will have all of the momentum going into the next corner. The problem is with run offs there's everything to gain and nothing to lose from putting yourself in position to be pushed off the track. Leclerc made no attempt to race, didn't defend the inside, took the racing line almost (bar Verstappen being inside him) almost as if Verstappen wasn't there and complained when Verstappen's car popped up in front him on the exit like he didn't realise he was in a race. If it had been the Monaco hairpin Leclerc would have yielded, why you ask? because he would have known that by not yielding the only place he was likely to end up was the barrier.
Soldato
Rich Energy are no loss to the sport or Haas.
McLaren PR has been working overtime on these two drivers this year, and it is beginning to pay off. Having a car that is beginning to also show some pace certainly helps too.
McLaren PR has been working overtime on these two drivers this year, and it is beginning to pay off. Having a car that is beginning to also show some pace certainly helps too.