Ships under attack in the middle east

[Danny75]

What don't you believe?

What else do you think the Royal Marines were there for if not to get a job done?

You're not making much sense here - that some ships have been seized by both the UK and Iran isn't in dispute, yes both sides made use of a helicopter and small boats in achieving this.

My comment was to BowdonUK who seemed to be unaware that the account of the takeover of the Grace 1 was pretty much the same. And also, I stated that I don't necessarily believe it (or disbelieve it) as no video has been released. In other words I'm not claiming it was exactly the same, just to look at what the accounts say.

Fail to see how it doesn't make sense.

 

[dowie]

Fail to see how it doesn't make sense.

What don't you believe with regards to the account of the Grace 1? You mention now video but you're comparing similarities? Are you not sure that a helicopter was involved? That Royal Marines were involved and dropped down from the helicopter?

Bowdon is correct btw.. I think you're just missing the point and have focused on the superficial rather than the important aspects such as the fact the UK flagged vessel was in an international strait, in Omani waters and forced to change course into Iranian waters.

 

[Danny75]

What don't you believe with regards to the account of the Grace 1? You mention now video but you're comparing similarities? Are you not sure that a helicopter was involved? That Royal Marines were involved and dropped down from the helicopter?

It's not that. That I don't disbelieve it doesn't mean I can claim it to be true. In other words, if I'm inviting someone look at an account, I should add that I have no proof that all of it is true.

Perhaps my choice of phrase was confusing* and led you to think I have a picture of something different. But no.

* Don't necessarily believe that's what happened

In fact, I did hear the helicopter, so I know it was involved. Plenty of helicopter activity the next day too. But I did not see the Marines dropping onto the ship so cannot claim it was true.

 

[dowie]

It's not that. That I don't disbelieve it doesn't mean I can claim it to be true. In other words, if I'm inviting someone look at an account, I should add that I have no proof that all of it is true.

I'm really not sure what you're questioning tbh... you're still not making any sense - the account you've posted is the one that has been widely reported elsewhere.

In fact, I did hear the helicopter, so I know it was involved. Plenty of helicopter activity the next day too. But I did not see the Marines dropping onto the ship so cannot claim it was true.

Aside from the photos of the Royal Marines on board the ship...

this is really odd - it isn't even in dispute that the Royal Marines seized Grace 1

 

[Danny75]

I'm really not sure what you're questioning tbh... you're still not making any sense - the account you've posted is the one that has been widely reported elsewhere.



Aside from the photos of the Royal Marines on board the ship...

this is really odd - it isn't even in dispute that the Royal Marines seized Grace 1

BowdonUK indicated he did not believe the Iranian tanker was stormed. So I invited him to look at an account of what went down that says different.

The rest I've explained - I cannot argue against his belief if I don't have all the facts myself. For example, yes the Marines were on the tanker. Yes, there was a helicopter (and boats) involved. Now we get to the "storming" part. No footage of them dropping onto it has been released. Did they "storm" it, or did they first request to board the ship and the request was accepted? Etc. That is what I won't argue with him/anyone about.

 

[dowie]

BowdonUK indicated he did not believe the Iranian tanker was stormed.

No he didn't, you've just misinterpreted what he said. The key words you're missing are "like they did", you've then focused on superficial similarities that aren't even in dispute such as a helicopter being used etc..

The rest I've explained - I cannot argue against his belief if I don't have all the facts myself. For example, yes the Marines were on the tanker. Yes, there was a helicopter (and boats) involved. Now we get to the "storming" part. No footage of them dropping onto it has been released. Did they "storm" it, or did they first request to board the ship and the request was accepted? Etc. That is what I won't argue with him/anyone about.

There is literally a picture in the above post of them doing that, it isn't particularly clear but the helicopter is hovering in order to get them onboard, this is rather quicker/easier than just boarding via boats, it has also been widely reported.

 

[Danny75]

No he didn't, you've just misinterpreted what he said. The key words you're missing are "like they did", you've then focused on superficial similarities that aren't even in dispute such as a helicopter being used etc..

Well hopefully @BowdonUK can clear up what he meant by "If the UK/US stormed an Iranian boat like they did", which I take to mean his disbelief that the Iranian tanker was similarly stormed with soldiers from a helicopter.

There is literally a picture in the above post of them doing that, it isn't particularly clear but the helicopter is hovering in order to get them onboard, this is rather quicker/easier than just boarding via boats, it has also been widely reported.

I agree with that being easier and I agree that's probably what happened. I cannot claim it for a fact, is all. Can you claim they stormed the ship without invitation, or did they request to board the ship?

 

[dowie]

Well hopefully @BowdonUK can clear up what he meant by "If the UK/US stormed an Iranian boat like they did", which I take to mean his disbelief that the Iranian tanker was similarly stormed with soldiers from a helicopter.

It is pretty obvious - he's referring to the account of how it happened - the radio recording etc.. the Iranians illegally intercepted the ship in Oman waters.

I agree with that being easier and I agree that's probably what happened. I cannot claim it for a fact, is all. Can you claim they stormed the ship without invitation, or did they request to board the ship?

They clearly didn't wait to be invited given they fast roped onto the deck from a helicopter - the ship may or may not have been given orders from the Royal Marines/Gibraltar police just before or as this was occurring but no invite is required! WTF are you smoking?

 

[Danny75]

They clearly didn't wait to be invited given they fast roped onto the deck from a helicopter - the ship may or may not have been given orders from the Royal Marines/Gibraltar police just before or as this was occurring but no invite is required! WTF are you smoking?

If they were given orders by the police or Marines, and they indicated acceptance, then even if you drop from a helicopter onto the ship, I wouldn't consider it "storming". If they were given no orders and/or they didn't indicate acceptance, then it would be storming.

I don't have those details. Unless you have them, you're presuming a little?

 

[BowdonUK]

Well hopefully @BowdonUK can clear up what he meant by "If the UK/US stormed an Iranian boat like they did", which I take to mean his disbelief that the Iranian tanker was similarly stormed with soldiers from a helicopter.

I was meaning when the Iranians flew in on a helicopter with masked men to board the ship, that if the UK did that to an Iranian ship they would be declaring war.

I'm not sure how we detained the Iranian ships prior to this, though I can't imagine we was using the same methods as I'm sure some footage would have emerged by now.

This is how the Iranians boarded the ship;

​

 

[dowie]

If they were given orders by the police or Marines, and they indicated acceptance, then even if you drop from a helicopter onto the ship, I wouldn't consider it "storming". If they were given no orders and/or they didn't indicate acceptance, then it would be storming.

I don't have those details. Unless you have them, you're presuming a little?

I think fast roping from a helicopter onto a vessel to take control of it is storming it whether or not there is any radio contact telling the captain what to do. Likewise you'll find that the Iranians were in radio contact with the UK flagged ship they seized - so what exactly is the issue here. Are you going to now say the UK flagged vessel wasn't "stormed"?

 

[dowie]

I was meaning when the Iranians flew in on a helicopter with masked men to board the ship, that if the UK did that to an Iranian ship they would be declaring war.

Eh? We did the same thing (perhaps minus the masks).The key difference is that the UK flagged ship was forced into Iranian waters and their seizure was illegal.

 

[Danny75]

I was meaning when the Iranians flew in on a helicopter with masked men to board the ship, that if the UK did that to an Iranian ship they would be declaring war.

I'm not sure how we detained the Iranian ships prior to this, though I can't imagine we was using the same methods as I'm sure some footage would have emerged by now.

This is how the Iranians boarded the ship;

​

Thank you @BowdonUK. That's exactly what I believed you meant.


@dowie I saw the comment you quickly edited out from your last post. It said something about my lack of reading comprehension regarding someone's post. Here's what I'll say - it says something about your nature to just edit that out upon having seen Bowdon clarifying what he meant (which I understood correctly), instead of acknowledging your own lack of reading comprehension. Wow.

 

[Screeeech]

I was meaning when the Iranians flew in on a helicopter with masked men to board the ship, that if the UK did that to an Iranian ship they would be declaring war.

rofl no they wouldn't, they'd rant, rave and saber rattle (as they always do) then largely do nothing, other than perhaps steal a few more ships, or take other safe bets when there's no chance of an actual fight.

 

[dowie]

Well I'm very surprised given that it has been widely reported that that is pretty much what the UK did do.

 

[BowdonUK]

Eh? We did the same thing (perhaps minus the masks).The key difference is that the UK flagged ship was forced into Iranian waters and their seizure was illegal.

From my understanding of the audio we heard from this incident, the Iranians were telling the boat to change course and it wouldn't be stopped. The British guy seemed to be saying that the boat didnt need to change course as it was conducting transit passage in a recognised trade lane and international law says that it shouldnt be stopped. So the boat carried on and the Iranians boarded and stopped it - I assume illegally, against international law.

 

[dowie]

@BowdonUK yes, and that is what I thought you were getting at in your post that @Danny75 quoted, not the fact that a helicopter was used and troops descended onto the ship etc..

 

[FTM]

bottom line was we intercepted the iranian tanker on the orders of the US

now they have hung us out to dry

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...k-after-its-own-ships-in-the-gulf-says-pompeo

shows they cant be trusted

 

[Rroff]

bottom line was we intercepted the iranian tanker on the orders of the US

now they have hung us out to dry

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...k-after-its-own-ships-in-the-gulf-says-pompeo

shows they cant be trusted

Don't see anything wrong with that TBH we should be protecting our own ships and have sufficient measures in place not depending on the US.

 

[dowie]

bottom line was we intercepted the iranian tanker on the orders of the US

now they have hung us out to dry

No they haven't and no we didn't. They apparently requested it and the UK was apparently monitoring the vessel too. They didn't "order it", they're not in any position to do so, it was seized because it was apparently breaking EU sanctions re: Syria, had it been heading elsewhere then we'd not keep it (and indeed we've already said we'll release it if we can receive assurances with regards to this). Please remember that the UK is not currently supporting the US's sanctions on Iran.