What does 600bhp feel like?

[DereksDontRun]

Eventually you will reach a point where the car just cant put the power down. That isnt a whole lot on UK roads...

600 in a Caterham would basically be suicidal.

https://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/topi...lerating-westfield-in-the-world-the-megawatt/
He tried to make a 1000bhp/ton (2000ftlbs/tonne) electric Westfield. Can't remember if there's a dyno print of the final figure.

 

[Gibbo]

Had three cars with 600HP pretty much, many with around 500HP.

F-Type SVR: 600HP, ZF 8-Speed, AWD
Ferrari 458: 570HP, DCT 7 speed, RWD
Saleen Mustang: 580HP, Manual 5 speed, RWD


In gear acceleration, as in thrust, the Saleen Mustang was scary, but it was 1580kg, RWD, live axle and no traction control system at all. Actual acceleration it was not that fast, the Jaguar faster and Ferrari leave it standing.
Off the line acceleration, the SVR was mental 0-30mph, torque converter locked and it fired off like a rocket, zero delays, huge punch and savage. Gears 1-3 it felt so fast, 4th was good, 5th so so, the weight factor kicked in as car was around 1750kg. But incredible whine and acceleration.
Ferrari 458, use launch control and its ballistic around 3s to 60, 7s to 100 in a RWD car, but the car always feel ballistic fast, its such an amazing road car because legal speeds feel so quick, but it can do crazy speeds too, you just do not need too in order to enjoy it on the road, it literally does everything so well and from a thrill of a drive is the best car I've owned by miles and it feels truly special.

As to using the power on the road, well never had any issue with that myself, whether it be launching from a set of traffic lights flat out, or on a country road absolutely flying, using the 600HP and all of it never being an issue, there is always a time and a place, in a city then of course not unless you just want to go 0-30mph every in a second which to be frank is totally boring. I buy my cars to drive and enjoy, hence NC500 trips, track days etc.

 

[acemastr]

My friend's E55 AMG with bigger supercharger is running about 650hp, he has noticeably more push back than my 460hp, he can spin tires in a straight line at 40-50mph and mine won't.

Up until 100 we're not far off eachother, he is walking away slowly, after 100 he's tearing off into the distance though.

 

[Frozennova]

Hard to compare 400hp to 600hp but going from 280hp in something light to a mildy tuned GTR (~530hp) is a huge difference and still completely usable on the road providing you aren't being an idiot.

BHP or torque / tonne is probably a better indicator.

200bhp in a Caterham would feel vastly different to 300bhp in a Porsche

Power to weight is only a decent indicator up to a certain point.

My MX5 is fairly similar power to weight to an F10 M5 280hp/1060kg vs 550hp/1900kg. At Santa Pod I was maybe a car length ahead at the 1/8 mile (87-88mph) but at that after that there's a significant difference.

The M5 finishes the 1/4 mile a second faster doing 15mph more (109mph vs 124mph)

 

[ttaskmaster]

NVM

 

[Alibaba99]

Hard to compare 400hp to 600hp but going from 280hp in something light to a mildy tuned GTR (~530hp) is a huge difference and still completely usable on the road providing you aren't being an idiot.

Power to weight is only a decent indicator up to a certain point.

My MX5 is fairly similar power to weight to an F10 M5 280hp/1060kg vs 550hp/1900kg. At Santa Pod I was maybe a car length ahead at the 1/8 mile (87-88mph) but at that after that there's a significant difference.

The M5 finishes the 1/4 mile a second faster doing 15mph more (109mph vs 124mph)

Power to weight, traction and gearing dominate the 0-60, above that it is drag (both aero and rolling resistance) to weight that dominates. A car with more power but more weight will pull away from a lower powered but lighter machine as speeds get higher.

 

[tsinc80697]

I went from 300hp/1550kg to 660hp/1750kg and there was a huge difference. Loved every minute and wouldn’t say no to owning another road car of similar power in the future.

Couldn’t use the power most of the time but when you can it’s nonstop grinning.

Now I’m in a 380hp/2250kg SUV that whilst it doesn’t feel that slow its definitely not as much fun as 660hp

 

[Frozennova]

Power to weight, traction and gearing dominate the 0-60, above that it is drag (both aero and rolling resistance) to weight that dominates. A car with more power but more weight will pull away from a lower powered but lighter machine as speeds get higher.

That was getting at, as you've explained much more elegantly there comes a point where regardless of weight you need the brute power to overcome aerodynamics etc

 

[Rroff]

Yeah definitely have to talk (LOL) BHP or torque per ton, aerodynamics, etc. - I have 230BHP w/ 550nm peak torque in my over 2000kg truck and it is a wholly different experience to driving a ~1500kg hatchback with ~220BHP w/ 300nm torque!

Now I’m in a 380hp/2250kg SUV that whilst it doesn’t feel that slow its definitely not as much fun as 660hp

Have to say as much as I sometimes find the performance just a touch lower than I'd like - I wouldn't really want any more power in my truck - at least on the road throwing around a large SUV or 2+ ton truck using crazy amounts of power would be pretty reckless.

 

[Nick1881]

Torque wins races, BHP sells cars

I'm sorry but it doesn't, it's more about power to weight ratio and gearing too.

That's why a diesel Golf with 317 lb/ft couldn't beat an Integra with only 135 lb/ft, even when the power was fairly close.

 

[Scania]

Depends on the road...
Will 600bhp stop Range Rovers from trying to bully you out the way?

450 Bhp easily puts those pesky Range drivers in their place, it just needs to be in a truck.

 

[Spleen Sauce]

My B9 S4 has 349bhp and 500Nm of torque. Its fairly heafty at 1630kg but its AWD. It's more than enough for the road, but saying that I've just driven a stage 1 B9 S4 running 420bhp (the Bosch ECUs have just been cracked by Autotune). It does feel a fair bit quicker and thats not a collosal jump up in power. I've driven a 700bhp RS6 with silly torques and that felt ridiculous, so yes I'd say there is a big jump.

As others have said though, with UK roads I don't think anyone really 'needs' anything more than 250hp to be honest. It's just nice to have. And not going to lie, tempted to get mine remapped when they're a bit more proven for reliability. But I certainly don't need it.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I'm sorry but it doesn't, it's more about power to weight ratio and gearing too.

That's why a diesel Golf with 317 lb/ft couldn't beat an Integra with only 135 lb/ft, even when the power was fairly close.

Lolz comparing completely different things.
of course gearing, drive type, aerodynamics, suspension etc etc make a difference.
BUT its torque that gives the brute force of acceleration, and BHP that gives the ability to maintain speed. Top speed basically where the point that total resistances (air, tyres etc) = power output

When they talk of torque winning races its in like cars and really goes back to when it was easier to tune a care for race tracks by mechanical means rather than ECU.
The fundamentals don't change however, the car with more BHP has more torque at that point.

 

[Nasher]

Diesels deliver the power a lot differently. They can get off the like quick, but there is nothing up top. You cant really compare like for like with a performance petrol engine.

 

[PMKeates]

Lolz comparing completely different things.
of course gearing, drive type, aerodynamics, suspension etc etc make a difference.
BUT its torque that gives the brute force of acceleration, and BHP that gives the ability to maintain speed. Top speed basically where the point that total resistances (air, tyres etc) = power output

When they talk of torque winning races its in like cars and really goes back to when it was easier to tune a care for race tracks by mechanical means rather than ECU.
The fundamentals don't change however, the car with more BHP has more torque at that point.

Torque doesn't 'win races'. You can have all the torque you like, but if you can't make it over a distance and time you do no work, produce no power, and do not accelerate. Power is torque plus all the useful bits to accelerate something included in the measurement.

Comparing engine torque figures alone to understand accelerative ability is nonsensical. This is obvious as engine output torque is not the twisting force that reaches the wheels, as the gearbox acts as a torque multiplier. Comparing engine torque figures along with power figures gives you more of an idea of the engine's character, but not much more.

 

[Alibaba99]

Lolz comparing completely different things.
of course gearing, drive type, aerodynamics, suspension etc etc make a difference.
BUT its torque that gives the brute force of acceleration, and BHP that gives the ability to maintain speed. Top speed basically where the point that total resistances (air, tyres etc) = power output

When they talk of torque winning races its in like cars and really goes back to when it was easier to tune a care for race tracks by mechanical means rather than ECU.
The fundamentals don't change however, the car with more BHP has more torque at that point.

Torque is a static measurement. You need to know the rate at which that torque is applied before you can consider its affect on acceleration, and of course, torque * rpm is power. When accelerating flat out the engine will also be around the peak power part of the rev range as the fastest acceleration will be achieved when changing up at the limiter and then allowing the revs to fall just below the peak power point.

A car with more BHP doesn't necessarily have more torque it can have an extended rev range.

All large amounts of low down torque indicate is that you have a flexible engine and that you can accelerate from low rpm, rather than changing down.

 

[SonicSW20]

Torque doesn't 'win races'. You can have all the torque you like, but if you can't make it over a distance and time you do no work, produce no power, and do not accelerate. Power is torque plus all the useful bits to accelerate something included in the measurement.

Comparing engine torque figures alone to understand accelerative ability is nonsensical. This is obvious as engine output torque is not the twisting force that reaches the wheels, as the gearbox acts as a torque multiplier. Comparing engine torque figures along with power figures gives you more of an idea of the engine's character, but not much more.

Glad someone said it. All these wonderful catchphrases like "torque wins races, bhp sells cars" or "bhp is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far the wall moves" are total ********.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Torque doesn't 'win races'. You can have all the torque you like, but if you can't make it over a distance and time you do no work, produce no power, and do not accelerate. Power is torque plus all the useful bits to accelerate something included in the measurement.

Comparing engine torque figures alone to understand accelerative ability is nonsensical. This is obvious as engine output torque is not the twisting force that reaches the wheels, as the gearbox acts as a torque multiplier. Comparing engine torque figures along with power figures gives you more of an idea of the engine's character, but not much more.

Yes yes and as I said of course the gearing etc all affect it. You could equally apply all of the comments you made to the BHP thing.
The car with most BHP will not necessarily win or be fastest or not run out of fuel etc

 

[theone8181]

Torque doesn't 'win races'. You can have all the torque you like, but if you can't make it over a distance and time you do no work, produce no power, and do not accelerate. Power is torque plus all the useful bits to accelerate something included in the measurement.

Comparing engine torque figures alone to understand accelerative ability is nonsensical. This is obvious as engine output torque is not the twisting force that reaches the wheels, as the gearbox acts as a torque multiplier. Comparing engine torque figures along with power figures gives you more of an idea of the engine's character, but not much more.

Sorry to sound stupid here, but when looking at specs of different cars, is torque worked out differently? The reason i ask is that if you said it was linked that much, wouldn't torque follow hp, and then wouldn't all cars have exactly the same torque curve with they have the same hp? I know in my car the torque is quite linear whereas power goes up, but my last car they were much closer. Again sorry if this sounds stupid but i can't get my head around it.

 

[233]

too many variables in that to really comment but recently changed from 200 bhp/1500kg to 300bhp/1900kg on paper not a huge increase at around 20% power to weight increase but everything else about the car also changed FWD to RWD manual to 8 speed auto and a huge jump in torque of about 60% means in the real world its much much quicker.

would certainly echo some of the sentiments above though, anything north of 200bhp/ton on the road is pretty much a quick point and squirt at best.