Section 21 letter

[Avathar77]

We have been renting this property for 10 years now and although we have been saying it is about time we find our own place, we never actual got around doing it although having a few casual viewings.
We were in the process of negotiating the rent for this years contract renewal.
Agent called and informed us the landlady is happy for us to stay for the same rent as we pay, I agreed verbally and asked for the contract to be sent.
Agent sent the contract few days later, only for us to find that it is actually someone else's contract!
We informed this to landlord and landlady. They contacted the Agent, following day and my wife gets a call from the agency saying rent has been increased by £100 per month.
We informed the landlord and landlady that the agency saying the rent is going to be increased now, but we were told before the landlady is ok with the current rent.
To which the landlady sent a tactical response by saying it is to do with the current market rent.
I called the agent and disputed this on the basis that they first said landlady is happy with what we are paying now and that is what we agreed.
Agent first didn't admit they said that but after I mention to them that all my calls are recorded(which they are) they soon changed the tone and tried to convince us to meet in middle at £50 increase.
We had a few calls asking the agent to talk to the landlord and landlady(to say what the agent first offered us).
I told them that i think it is unfair to increase the rent once we are offered at the current price and ask if we are ok to stay and later when we agree to come back and increase the rent.
Agency asked me to send them these in email as I was not budging and I keep asking them if they have sent our contract to someone else as they have done before.
We were then hand delivered(dropped through the letter box) a section 21 letter!
I tried contacting the agency via their web site and all i get was an error when submitting the email via their web form. I then found an email address and wrote to that asking for a proper email address for all this info to be sent.
They said the person who was dealing with our contract is on holiday and asked me to wait till Thursday(and also that their web form system does not work).
I contacted landlord and mentioned all of this and attached the call recording to show what the agency said to me - that landlady is ok for us to stay at the current rent.
He was silent for a day and told us that they are selling the house due to personal circumstances.
I do get that this might be a legitimate case of needing to sell the property, but i cant help but think they are trying to get out of this by evicting us.
Now my priority is to find a house for my family and I am not sure i can do that in 2 months time - which according to section 21 letter I have before I move out. I dont want to move to another rental property for another year to find a place and move again, i would rather buy my own.
I am going to ask for more time but not sure if they will agree.
Just stressed at the moment but trying to show a brave face to keep things cool.

 

[martin363]

Sorry about the situation - What reason did they give you for the Section 21 on the section 21 itself? I though as of the 1st June 'no fault' section 1 notices / evictions have been banned?

Selling is a legitimate reason for eviction, provided they put it on the market with the genuine intent of selling, but it should also be detailed on the Section 21 letter itself?

I suggest you go to citizens advice with he relevant documentation today. they will offer you free support, but also look for a new home. Sorry again

 

[fastwunz]

It’s kind of tough I’m afraid. It’s not your house and they can serve a section 21 and have done so.

Best to move (despite the difficulties) as they either don’t want you there or are indeed selling the property. Either way you loose.

The rental system is pretty brutal at times

 

[Mark M]

Ask them how much they want for the property and buy it?

 

[roccles]

Ask them how much they want for the property and buy it?

If you want to buy and they want to sell this seems like a good starting point and if you get it sorted without the landlord needing to instruct an estate agent you could negotiate a slightly lower price. No removal companies, no chain etc. sounds perfect if your happy in that house.

 

[Haggisman]

Sounds fishy to me... Going from negotiating to renew for a year to needing to sell, conveniently just after you've refused to accept a rent increase? If I was cynical, I'd be thinking they are trying to scare you into accepting the increase! So offering to buy is a good way to call their bluff (and win win if you do actually want to buy it), alternatively your choices are really just move out or see if accepting the increase suddenly "fixes" the "personal reasons" (bitter as it is to swallow, its potentially still cheaper than moving :/)

 

[MissChief]

Sounds like the Agency, who likely get a percentage cut of the rent have been telling the landlady she can put the rent up and still be in line with other properties in the area. As said if you're thinking of buying and like the place offer to buy it. Push for less hassle, no viewings to organise and a quicker sale. With a discount!

 

[Semple]

Your first mistake really was negotiating a renewal, what's wrong these days with a rolling contract. Sounds like scummy letting agents have been pushing renewals on you for 10 years!

I'd agree with the above that it seems fishy that they were at first trying to negotiate a renewal, and then all of a sudden they've decided they now wish to sell. Maybe have a talk to CAB regarding a no-fault eviction and see what advice they have to give.

Your options are seemingly limited though, buying the house off the landlord, accepting the rent increase (if LL/LA are happy revoke the s21), or moving to another property.

You mentioned you've had a few casual viewings of properties, are you now in a position to make a purchase? - i.e. deposit saved up, got an agreement in principle, seen properties that you like? If yes, it sounds like negotiating the next years rent contract would have been a bad idea anyway, as you wouldn't have been able to move without being subject to all that years rent.

 

[byeo]

Similar happened to my mum and dad a few years ago. Rented a property via agency, everything was fine, agency did checks every few months to make sure everything was ok with the house etc.. Along the way a few niggles started to crop up which were eventually corrected.

At the end of their first year they were told the owner wanted to sell up and my parents had to find elsewhere, they were gutted but these things happen. A few weeks later they see the house is online available to rent at a higher price, parents were miffed tbh and actually contacted the agency and called them out on it. They admitted it wasn't going to be sold, the owner wasn't happy about having to replace certain things in the house and also thought my parents wouldn't want to pay more p/m so the best option was to get someone else in...

They then told the agency that they wouldn't have been bothered about a price increase as they were happy with the house but due to how the agency lied and how the landlord has treated them once new tenants move in they'll be getting a letter explaining how the agency and landlord have acted in the past and to be wary.

 

[Semple]

Similar happened to my mum and dad a few years ago. Rented a property via agency, everything was fine, agency did checks every few months to make sure everything was ok with the house etc.. Along the way a few niggles started to crop up which were eventually corrected.

At the end of their first year they were told the owner wanted to sell up and my parents had to find elsewhere, they were gutted but these things happen. A few weeks later they see the house is online available to rent at a higher price, parents were miffed tbh and actually contacted the agency and called them out on it. They admitted it wasn't going to be sold, the owner wasn't happy about having to replace certain things in the house and also thought my parents wouldn't want to pay more p/m so the best option was to get someone else in...

They then told the agency that they wouldn't have been bothered about a price increase as they were happy with the house but due to how the agency lied and how the landlord has treated them once new tenants move in they'll be getting a letter explaining how the agency and landlord have acted in the past and to be wary.

Yeah it's a good idea warning the new tenants of expected tricks down the line.

Frankly there needs to be some protections in place to stop honest renters from getting turfed out like this. I can side with the landlord when they've got nightmare tenants who aren't paying rent or are damaging things, or if the landlord has truly had enough and needs to sell up. But any other reason, and they should be able to be slapped with a large fine, both them and the lettings agent for facilitating the issue.

It's absolutely not unreasonable for a tenant to expect that things in the property that they're paying rent for are in perfect working order. If the landlord doesn't want the hassle of having to deal with replacing things, then they should advertise the property as completely unfurnished - as in even white goods such as washing machine and fridge/freezer needing to be supplied by the tennant. They might not be able to command as much rent as other properties, but at least if the fridge breaks or washing machine stops working, they don't have to bother with the hassle of getting it sorted.

 

[Avathar77]

Sorry for the delay.
Thank you all for the replies. I was venting and didn't expect this many responses to be honest. Showing a brave face and saying its going to be all right to wife and kids, but my stomach churns sometimes thinking about having to move out and what to do if we dont find a place in time.
To answer some of the questions:
Yes we are in a position to buy a house - have been saving for ages and planing this. But I fear this is just going to put us in to a rush mode. The house we live in is ok to rent but not so to make us our home, it has not had any major renovations done for the whole time(we have done the paining at the consent of the landlord almost every year). I would not be happy buying the current one we rent, but i did express the interest in knowing the price to the LL after seeing some of the comments here.
We have a group whatsapp channel for the house - He asked for our permission to bring an agent in to put the house up for sale. I didnt respond to that but asked if we can have 4 months instead of 2(or as soon as we find a house - which ever comes first).
This was yesterday and I also managed to get a "certificate of mortgage in principle" after put our details in and booked 3 viewings this Saturday.
Today - LL came back and told after considering our request he had to decline as they really have to sell. and said he is coming in at 14:00 today with an agent and "See you at 14:00 today if you are going to be there. ". also "2 months notice is the legal requirement and plenty of time should it be used wisely".

Until now we have not agreed for the LL or he agent to visit the house today, but when my stepson was in the house they have come in and my stepson has let them in because he knows the LL!

 

[Puzzled]

Just because they are selling doesn't mean they don't have to give proper notice to come around. I wouldn't do them any favours either, when our landlord sold up they expected us to stay home to wait for agents / photographers, guess what we told them

I was particularly bitter about that one as they had clearly lied to us about their intentions to rent long term when it turned out they just wanted a few months to get things ready to sell. The sooner renting is unprofitable for unprofessional landlords the better in my book, so many jokers around.

 

[Resident]

Yeah it's a good idea warning the new tenants of expected tricks down the line.

Frankly there needs to be some protections in place to stop honest renters from getting turfed out like this. I can side with the landlord when they've got nightmare tenants who aren't paying rent or are damaging things, or if the landlord has truly had enough and needs to sell up. But any other reason, and they should be able to be slapped with a large fine, both them and the lettings agent for facilitating the issue.

It's absolutely not unreasonable for a tenant to expect that things in the property that they're paying rent for are in perfect working order. If the landlord doesn't want the hassle of having to deal with replacing things, then they should advertise the property as completely unfurnished - as in even white goods such as washing machine and fridge/freezer needing to be supplied by the tennant. They might not be able to command as much rent as other properties, but at least if the fridge breaks or washing machine stops working, they don't have to bother with the hassle of getting it sorted.

BOLD Forcing LLs to put a formal reason for the eviction would be a start. S21 is far too broad and open to abuse.

UNDERLINED This happened to myself and the Mrs. House we rented had a few issues when we moved in but it was perfect for us location wise. We were promised these issues (didn't make it unliveable) would be fixed by the end of our first contract (in writing). Came within 2 months of end and we started insisting work was started. Instead we got a Sec 21.

 

[jpaul]

Until now we have not agreed for the LL or he agent to visit the house today

don't burn your bridges .. the new owner could be buy to rent, and, if you contact purchaser through estate agent it can be possible to negotiate staying ..
had done that in a previous house but had found an alternative/better place in the interim so ultimately didn't take the option to stay.

 

[Semple]

don't burn your bridges .. the new owner could be buy to rent, and, if you contact purchaser through estate agent it can be possible to negotiate staying ..
had done that in a previous house but had found an alternative/better place in the interim so ultimately didn't take the option to stay.

This is certainly a possibility, but in reality is a very slim chance. If the LL was selling to another BTL landlord they'd have been better off selling it during a tenants term and selling it with them to continue.

 

[jpaul]

[ selling with a sitting tenant can be problematic, and you don't want to limit your market to btl landlords ]

 

[MissChief]

don't burn your bridges .. the new owner could be buy to rent, and, if you contact purchaser through estate agent it can be possible to negotiate staying ..
had done that in a previous house but had found an alternative/better place in the interim so ultimately didn't take the option to stay.

My place was sold with myself in place. Within three months they’d put the rent up by £120pm.

 

[Avathar77]

Thread bump!
After almost 3 months we are going to move out!
Found a nice little place and its going to be our first home purchase.

LL has not put the current house to the market to sell - despite saying that earlier. However they have offered it for us to buy, we politely declined as we have made an offer to the property we liked.

Now, the issue is, we have been paying the same rent even after the section 21 was issued as it is the right thing to do. But the exchange and completion of the new house is going to be falling 4 days after the 25th - which is the usual day for paying the next months rent. Not sure if this means we have to pay for a whole month(hope not) or we can come to an agreement to pay for 1 week, which I will try to negotiate.

Also not sure how to do the moving out process now that the relationship with the estate agent and the LL is non there. There has not been a house check for the past 10 years from their side. Only had the first inspection with a list of items came with the house and their condition when we moved in 10 years ago and according to the contract they are supposed to do every year - so not sure how this will play out with the deposit if they object to some of the things.
I assume we hand over the kesy after we move out and LL will examine the property and see if all is good. Thats the part that worries me - while we have maintained the property better than they did, they could say things that would effect our deposit.

 

[crinkleshoes]

Sorry for the delay.
Thank you all for the replies. I was venting and didn't expect this many responses to be honest. Showing a brave face and saying its going to be all right to wife and kids, but my stomach churns sometimes thinking about having to move out and what to do if we dont find a place in time.
To answer some of the questions:
Yes we are in a position to buy a house - have been saving for ages and planing this. But I fear this is just going to put us in to a rush mode. The house we live in is ok to rent but not so to make us our home, it has not had any major renovations done for the whole time(we have done the paining at the consent of the landlord almost every year). I would not be happy buying the current one we rent, but i did express the interest in knowing the price to the LL after seeing some of the comments here.
We have a group whatsapp channel for the house - He asked for our permission to bring an agent in to put the house up for sale. I didnt respond to that but asked if we can have 4 months instead of 2(or as soon as we find a house - which ever comes first).
This was yesterday and I also managed to get a "certificate of mortgage in principle" after put our details in and booked 3 viewings this Saturday.
Today - LL came back and told after considering our request he had to decline as they really have to sell. and said he is coming in at 14:00 today with an agent and "See you at 14:00 today if you are going to be there. ". also "2 months notice is the legal requirement and plenty of time should it be used wisely".

Until now we have not agreed for the LL or he agent to visit the house today, but when my stepson was in the house they have come in and my stepson has let them in because he knows the LL!

They can't just enter the property like that... they can request access, which you are within your rights to deny, including for their regular "inspections" (aka, home invasions), even if included in your contract.
That's breach of the quiet enjoyment clause of the contract.

You have more than 2 months, you do not have to move out at the expiry of the 2 month time limit. However, it might cause some stress along the way.

1. Speak to the landlord nicely, say you want to move and buy your own place, but finding the right place in 2 months might prove difficult, so respectfully request some leeway in the time limit you've been given.
2. Only at the end of the 2 month time limit can he apply to the court to evict you, this process often takes a couple of months.
3. Even after this has been approved, he has to apply to the court again to have the eviction enforced, this often takes a couple of months again.

In reality... you have a good 6 months before he can actually kick you out. You just will have to deal with a bit of stress and if you were renting again after, you probably wouldn't get a good reference, even if the prior ten years had been good.

Thread bump!
After almost 3 months we are going to move out!
Found a nice little place and its going to be our first home purchase.

LL has not put the current house to the market to sell - despite saying that earlier. However they have offered it for us to buy, we politely declined as we have made an offer to the property we liked.

Now, the issue is, we have been paying the same rent even after the section 21 was issued as it is the right thing to do. But the exchange and completion of the new house is going to be falling 4 days after the 25th - which is the usual day for paying the next months rent. Not sure if this means we have to pay for a whole month(hope not) or we can come to an agreement to pay for 1 week, which I will try to negotiate.

Also not sure how to do the moving out process now that the relationship with the estate agent and the LL is non there. There has not been a house check for the past 10 years from their side. Only had the first inspection with a list of items came with the house and their condition when we moved in 10 years ago and according to the contract they are supposed to do every year - so not sure how this will play out with the deposit if they object to some of the things.
I assume we hand over the kesy after we move out and LL will examine the property and see if all is good. Thats the part that worries me - while we have maintained the property better than they did, they could say things that would effect our deposit.

Glad you've found somewhere.

Reasonable wear and tear is acceptable, but in my experience LLs try to claim for everything.

Not sure when the deposit protection scheme stuff came into force, but hopefully you have that to protect you.

Make sure you take lots of photos of anything in dispute and are present when they do the checkout.

It's possible you'll have to pay the full month, even though it's only 4 days... depends on how reasonable they are.

 

[Avathar77]

They can't just enter the property like that... they can request access, which you are within your rights to deny, including for their regular "inspections" (aka, home invasions), even if included in your contract.
That's breach of the quiet enjoyment clause of the contract.

You have more than 2 months, you do not have to move out at the expiry of the 2 month time limit. However, it might cause some stress along the way.

1. Speak to the landlord nicely, say you want to move and buy your own place, but finding the right place in 2 months might prove difficult, so respectfully request some leeway in the time limit you've been given.
2. Only at the end of the 2 month time limit can he apply to the court to evict you, this process often takes a couple of months.
3. Even after this has been approved, he has to apply to the court again to have the eviction enforced, this often takes a couple of months again.

In reality... you have a good 6 months before he can actually kick you out. You just will have to deal with a bit of stress and if you were renting again after, you probably wouldn't get a good reference, even if the prior ten years had been good.



Glad you've found somewhere.

Reasonable wear and tear is acceptable, but in my experience LLs try to claim for everything.

Not sure when the deposit protection scheme stuff came into force, but hopefully you have that to protect you.

Make sure you take lots of photos of anything in dispute and are present when they do the checkout.

It's possible you'll have to pay the full month, even though it's only 4 days... depends on how reasonable they are.

Thank you for the reply.
Yes our deposit is protected in a scheme. Plan to make a recording of the whole house Some of the items have been replaced because they broke over time - they were really old, were there when we moved in(Dining table, fridge, washing machine, sofa) and we bought new ones with our money after we agreed with the LL in writing.
Don't actually know the process of this "checklist" - as in we move out and they check it after another day and we have to be there when they do as you say?

Well we could always pay the full month and do the move slowly if they ask for the full amount