Was there any hint of evidence that Stalin was about to invade Germany, before barbarossa?

[nightrider1470]

Or was it just goebbels at his best conning the German people to please the mentally ill/drugged up/paranoid Hitler?

Its a known fact that Germany thought Russia was about to attack, hence a eventual two front war.

Surely Hitler couldn't of been that close to self destruction!

Another part of the question! If Hitler leaves Poland alone after deafeating Austria and Check etc and instead invades Russia could he had defeated Stalin? and eventually Europe?

 

[Rroff]

I think there is some controversy as to whether Stalin intended to invade Germany but Russia (USSR) at that point was progressing into an expansionist stance with interests in pushing outwards over-running Germany interests in Northern and North Eastern/East Europe so one way or another it would likely have come to armed conflict over the territory between them at least.

 

[Meridian]

At the time? No. Eventually, almost certainly. In 1941 Stalin was still purging his generals and in no position to attack anyone, or even thinking about it. However, he knew a war was inevitable at some point, but had no idea how soon it would be, even though many of his generals warned him. I believe some did not survive the experience. Any suggestion otherwise tends to come from Nazi apologists.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Sherry time is over OP

The only person I want to hear from in this thread is the guy who wants to impress his dad about war atrocities because that was the best *checks notes* uh, thread about Nazis, um hang on a second.

Oh.

 

[mmj_uk]

I'm no expert but the Soviets weren't really prepared for war least of all with Nazi Germany, we had to provide them with equipment via the Arctic Convoys ffs. I think pre-emption was just an excuse, at the end of the day Germany wanted land (living space) and Russia had more of that than anyone.

 

[Meridian]

we had to provide them with equipment via the Arctic Convoys

Pretty much everything the West shipped over in the Arctic convoys was useless to the USSR. The vast majority of it was used for training or scrap. Example: we shipped Sherman tanks to the country which built the T34. The Soviet problem was organisation and people, not material. The Arctic convoys were a mixture of showing willing and propaganda.

 

[ubersonic]

Or was it just goebbels at his best conning the German people to please the mentally ill/drugged up/paranoid Hitler?

Yes, the USSR was in no condition to be invading the Reich and wouldn't have been for years even if it was Stalin's eventual plan, they didn't even have the capacity to stop a German invasion (they were dependant on allied supplies sent via the arctic convoys to prevent the fall of Moscow).

Pretty much everything the West shipped over in the Arctic convoys was useless to the USSR. The vast majority of it was used for training or scrap. Example: we shipped Sherman tanks to the country which built the T34. The Soviet problem was organisation and people, not material. The Arctic convoys were a mixture of showing willing and propaganda.

No offence but this is entirely nonsense. We shipped tanks, trucks and even trains to a country that had hardly any modern tanks, moved it's equipment by horse and moved it's infantry entirely by foot. If it hadn't been for allied assistance then the Germans would have taken Moscow long before winter as the Soviets simply wouldn't have been able to put enough bodies in the way never mind equipment.

The main soviet problem was that although they had a gigantic numbers advantage over other nations they had no supplies/equipment for them and couldn't produce it in a timely fashion due to lack of knowledge/skills or even the factories required to build it.

 

[Roar87]

There was no evidence or thought that Russia was about to invade Germany, the war was viewed as inevitable though

 

[Gerard]

Sherry time is over OP

The only person I want to hear from in this thread is the guy who wants to impress his dad about war atrocities because that was the best *checks notes* uh, thread about Nazis, um hang on a second.

Oh.

 

[Rroff]

Pretty much everything the West shipped over in the Arctic convoys was useless to the USSR. The vast majority of it was used for training or scrap. Example: we shipped Sherman tanks to the country which built the T34. The Soviet problem was organisation and people, not material. The Arctic convoys were a mixture of showing willing and propaganda.

From what I understand loads of it was used for training purposes and to equip defensive units who'd have more time to train on them to free up Soviet hardware for the frontline where the operators would be more familiar with it so not really useless.

 

[Angilion]

Another possibility is that Geobbels et alia thought the USSR was about to invade, not knowing that at that time it was in no state to do so. A lot of things were unclear during WW2, with the USSR definitely being one of them (especially from the Nazi's perspective, since they didn't have much in the way of resources for gathering information about the USSR). Add in the fact that every country was lying to its enemies (and sometimes countries that weren't its enemies as well), with whole organisations of very skilled people devoted specifically to lying in as many ways as possible and that every country was doing its best to stop its enemies finding out anything...and you end up with a lot of decisions made on uncertain information, assumptions and worries about what might happen.

Random example - the Nazi's atomic bomb project. It turned out to be not much, but if you were making decisions for the Allies and you knew that an atomic bomb was a possibility and you had plausible information that the Nazis had an atomic bomb project and you didn't know how far they'd got with it, what decision would you make?

I find the extent of the lying in WW2 fascinating, along with the skill and courage often involved with it. For example - Juan Pujol Garcia, also known as Agent Garbo. A much overlooked person who acted with a great deal of skill and courage for a sustained period of time and then quietly went away with only secret recognition and little reward because he did what he did for the greater good and not for any benefit to himself. A double agent of such skill that he was honoured by both sides. He was actually working for British intelligence, but he was so skilled at lying that the Nazis were absolutely convinced he was working for them and thought that he was of such use to them that they awarded him an Iron Cross. He even fooled the Nazis into sending encryption information and quite a lot of money to British military intelligence!

[..] Another part of the question! If Hitler leaves Poland alone after deafeating Austria and Check etc and instead invades Russia could he had defeated Stalin? and eventually Europe?

Interesting questions and I don't have an answer. I'd narrow it down a bit, though. The key target area for Germany c. 1939 would have been the Soviet oil producing area in the Caucasus region. The rest of the USSR would have been a lesser target that could have been ignored for a while at least. Oil was what really mattered in WW2.

 

[Rroff]

Another possibility is that Geobbels et alia thought the USSR was about to invade, not knowing that at that time it was in no state to do so. A lot of things were unclear during WW2, with the USSR definitely being one of them (especially from the Nazi's perspective, since they didn't have much in the way of resources for gathering information about the USSR). Add in the fact that every country was lying to its enemies (and sometimes countries that weren't its enemies as well), with whole organisations of very skilled people devoted specifically to lying in as many ways as possible and that every country was doing its best to stop its enemies finding out anything...and you end up with a lot of decisions made on uncertain information, assumptions and worries about what might happen.

Interesting thought there - during the late 20s and early 30s Germany underplayed/hid a lot about their military developments and had covert tank programs, building up naval capabilities using deception, etc. it is probable they'd assume that other countries would have the same mindset as them - infact Germans are rather one dimensionally logical in their thinking about things like that - and assume the Soviets were doing similar, etc.

 

[Scania]

I doubt Stalin had any plans to invade Germany, and wouldn’t have entertained any plans presented to him suggesting it.

But, had Germany swept east first instead of west I think we’d be living in a very different world today.

We could have been facing Nazi Germany using the resources of what would have then been the former Soviet Union to drive west, along with the many technological innovations that the Nazis had by the end of the war (such as jet fighters, V1 & V2 rockets etc) but we’re too little too late to save them.

Just consider the west had continued with appeasement of Hitler whilst he crushed Russia only to then find us fighting the Battle of Britain in say 1943 with the Nazis throwing a jet equipped Air Force at us and raining rockets down on us.

Thankfully it didn’t work out like that, but could have.....

 

[B@Th*nG]

i thought hitler pushed into russia because his only source of oil at the time was romania and he needed oil to keep the war machine going. The Soveit's not only had oil but were in danger of attacking/securing the Romanian fields.

"On June 1941, a vast German army invaded the Soviet Union. One wing advanced towards Leningrad, another towards the Soviet capital at Moscow. A third army group cut through the south, slicing through the Ukraine. It’s objective: the Soviet oil fields in the Caucasus Mountains."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/How-Oil-Defeated-The-Nazis.html

he knew it was a crappy idea but he had no other choice. Lose Romania, be unable to keep the war machine rolling and lose the war.

There's a recorded telephone conversation between Hitler and the prime minister of finland, i think, where he discusses this. This is also the only known example of Hitler's speaking voice.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClR9tcpKZec

B@

 

[Washout]

i thought hitler pushed into russia because his only source of oil at the time was romania and he needed oil to keep the war machine going. The Soveit's not only had oil but were in danger of attacking/securing the Romanian fields.

"On June 1941, a vast German army invaded the Soviet Union. One wing advanced towards Leningrad, another towards the Soviet capital at Moscow. A third army group cut through the south, slicing through the Ukraine. It’s objective: the Soviet oil fields in the Caucasus Mountains."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/How-Oil-Defeated-The-Nazis.html

he knew it was a crappy idea but he had no other choice. Lose Romania, be unable to keep the war machine rolling and lose the war.

There's a recorded telephone conversation between Hitler and the prime minister of finland, i think, where he discusses this. This is also the only known example of Hitler's speaking voice.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClR9tcpKZec

B@

My only fleeting knowledge about all this came from the World at War documentary.
That left me with the impression that the fight for those oil fields in the south of the ussr went slower than expected and they rushed their mobile units that had been in sight of Moscow down to secure them.
Probably made sense at the time but ultimately back fired as by the time they started back for Moscow the winter set in and gave the ussr time to get their ridiculous production capacity in the east going.

Whether or not the fall of Moscow would have been a death blow to the ussr or not is a different question?

 

[Blackjack Davy]

There was no evidence or thought that Russia was about to invade Germany, the war was viewed as inevitable though

Stalin was apparently surprised when he heard that Germany had invaded Russia he wasn't expecting that he was quite happy with his deal to carve up Poland between them. Incidently he still kept the half he annexed he just pushed the border west into what was previously eastern germany and Prussia basically disappeared off the map after the war. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

 

[Rroff]

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClR9tcpKZec

Pretty interesting exchange - and shows the kind of German logic thinking I was talking about before where he is talking about doing trial to prove war in winter was "impossible" versus the starting point for Soviet thinking.

 

[Rofflay]

Stalin was apparently surprised when he heard that Germany had invaded Russia he wasn't expecting that he was quite happy with his deal to carve up Poland between them. Incidently he still kept the half he annexed he just pushed the border west into what was previously eastern germany and Prussia basically disappeared off the map after the war. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

From memory of the documentary the pact was to buy Stalin two more years of industry he badly needed and Hitler needed time too so Stalin was convinced he had the time. It is hilarious that his spy in the Luftwaffe warned him of German buildup in the East. He was embarrassed by this affront to his tactical thinking and explained a two front war for Hitler was unthinkable, Crazy and will never happen. But Hitler was crazy, And he had no choice he coule wait no longer so operations were set.


Again the Spy at great risk sent urgent word of imminent German attack, Stalin was furious he refused his Generals to prepare a little but nothing was done. He then sent a message back to the spy, It said F your mother - Comrade Stalin.


A week later the Germans did invade, And Stalin dissapeared in panic, But i cannot help but think of that Luftwaffe spy taking great risk to read Stalins reply about his mother LOL! Stalin had a sense of humor, He probably already had her in the Gulag.

 

[nightrider1470]

Watch hitlers circle of evil on Netflix, all. Its amazing... Just finished... Needs red wine though

 

[adolf hamster]

I doubt Stalin had any plans to invade Germany, and wouldn’t have entertained any plans presented to him suggesting it.

But, had Germany swept east first instead of west I think we’d be living in a very different world today.

We could have been facing Nazi Germany using the resources of what would have then been the former Soviet Union to drive west, along with the many technological innovations that the Nazis had by the end of the war (such as jet fighters, V1 & V2 rockets etc) but we’re too little too late to save them.

Just consider the west had continued with appeasement of Hitler whilst he crushed Russia only to then find us fighting the Battle of Britain in say 1943 with the Nazis throwing a jet equipped Air Force at us and raining rockets down on us.

Thankfully it didn’t work out like that, but could have.....

we declared war on hitler when he invaded poland though, had he focused the majority of the Wehrmacht to the east then he'd have left the west open for the french and british to attack.

we need to remember that at the time hitler's perceptions were that the french would be his greatest foe and was surprised as the french were that they managed to secure a surrender so quickly, after all it was the french army that dug it's heels in and halted their advance in the first world war leading to the horror of the trenches which is something everybody wanted to avoid.

it's why in the run up to the war he signed a pact with stalin to carve up poland and more importantly leave each other alone, meant he could throw all his forces at his biggest enemy without fear of needing to split up into a war on 2 fronts.