House Purchase/Renovation

[RedMogg]

What a fantastic property and virtually blank canvas to work on - will be following your progress.

I hope everything goes smoothly for you and your family

 

[toshj]

Stupid question alert. Really stupid.

We need to install a cavity waterproof system in our basement. At present we only have 220cm in height to the underside of the joists. We'd ideally like to have exposed or partly exposed joists in the basement to make the ceiling less oppressive however I understand that this might not be approved by building regs.

The waterproof cavity system requires 10cm wide an deep trenches to be dug around the perimeter of the basement. This floor in the basement is a concrete screed, laid after the original basement was dugt out from 1.80cm to 2.40cm. We are only able to dig these trenches if it doesn't impact the structural integrity of the building/basement. Otherwise we have to raise the floor by 10cms and that impacts the ceiling height.

Stupid question alert. These are the drawings done at the time the basement was dug out (1977). Do we all think the term "structural slab" means that it's genuinely a structural screed?

 

[eviled]

the slab will likely be concrete and looking at the foot notes possibly has reinforcement so sounds pretty structural, the screed will just be to level it and not especially structural

looking at the age of the house I doubt you have concrete footings for the walls like illustrated unless its had a lot of remedial underpinning.
Much more likely is a continuation of the brick down but getting wider as they go.

Best thing to do is take up a section of the slab edge with a breaker and see what you have.
From personal experience you will need floor and wall insulation. An un-insulated slab on wet soil will suck all the heat out of there. It looks like you could remove the concrete above the footing for the drains and them stick 100mm insulation and a layer of screed to bring it level quite nicely, but obviously you would lose 5-6" head height

I'm just about to pour my own slab after digging my (much smaller) basement out. Dug down 30cm then the layers will be...
hardcore - sand - visqueen - 100mm insulation - visqueen - 75mm concrete - self levelling compound

 

[toshj]

the slab will likely be concrete and looking at the foot notes possibly has reinforcement so sounds pretty structural, the screed will just be to level it and not especially structural

looking at the age of the house I doubt you have concrete footings for the walls like illustrated unless its had a lot of remedial underpinning.
Much more likely is a continuation of the brick down but getting wider as they go.

Best thing to do is take up a section of the slab edge with a breaker and see what you have.
From personal experience you will need floor and wall insulation. An un-insulated slab on wet soil will suck all the heat out of there. It looks like you could remove the concrete above the footing for the drains and them stick 100mm insulation and a layer of screed to bring it level quite nicely, but obviously you would lose 5-6" head height

I'm just about to pour my own slab after digging my (much smaller) basement out. Dug down 30cm then the layers will be...
hardcore - sand - visqueen - 100mm insulation - visqueen - 75mm concrete - self levelling compound

Thanks for your thoughts. From what I've been told by the waterproofing firm, once they lay the membrane on the floor, they then need to lay another 5-6cm of screed on top to properly seal it. We can lay a wood boarding instead of the screed but we'd then be unable to attach or place anything on it - as we want to do a kitchen down there, we have to go for the concrete screed option.

Should we be unable to dig trenches we'd then have to raise the floor by 10cms to accommodate the trenches, and then an additional screed to secure the membrane and then the flooring. If we go for insulation plus screed plus membrane, etc. we're going to lose too much head height.

I'm 6'4" (193cm) and my wife is 6' - every chance our son will be taller than me - so with the current height at 220cm, we don't have much to play around with, particularly when you throw insulation into the mix. Trying to find an insulation solution that doesn't rid us of too much head height but struggling. I don't know what it'll feel like once it's done, but at present the concrete screed in place already isn't particularly cold. It's cold, but not as much as you'd expect.

I think there is something under the walls, as in certain places it#s exposed and seems to be robust and purposeful. I'll take a photo later. We've got a builder coming round in ten mins to give the place a once over, so I imagine a few other things will come to light.

Good luck with your slab! Couldn't borrow some head height, could I...?

 

[eviled]

Sound like they might have under pinned it when they did the floor in that case, I’ve had to in certain places.

Lend you head height? I’ve only got less than 2m, good job I’m only 177cm!

thinnest insulation I’ve found is vacuum insulated panels (VIP) - https://www.kingspan.com/gb/en-gb/p...lation-boards/optim-r/optim-r-flooring-system

expensive though!

 

[Martynt74]

It'd be a big job i imagine but do you have enough ceiling height on the ground floor to raise the flooring to give the extra head height.

I imagine in certain places that wouldn't be possible or practical but might be in others.

I'm just thinking of things like ceiling lights/extractor fans for the kitchen, with a 2m ceiling it's going to get tricky!

 

[touch]

At the very least you could partially dig the trench into the existing 1inch screed and only need to raise the floor 7.5cm above that?

 

[toshj]

At the very least you could partially dig the trench into the existing 1inch screed and only need to raise the floor 7.5cm above that?

I like this idea, any kid of space saving is ideal. What we're trying to avoid is just about squeezing everything in and leaving ~5cm of head height. This would make the whole room feel oppressive and over-bearing, particularly as there isn't loads of natural light.

I'm just thinking of things like ceiling lights/extractor fans for the kitchen, with a 2m ceiling it's going to get tricky!

Hoping to put and wire the ceiling lights between the joists - whether the joists are wholly or partially exposed. Based on where we think we can get the oven, then there's a chance we can wedge the extractor fan in between joists. That said, we can also look to lodge the cooking in between chimney breasts but we'd have to give up our current range cooker and instead buy a counter top and oven option instead.

Thanks for the advice and thoughts. That insulation looks very interesting. We had our first proper visit yesterday from a large project contractor. Unfortunately I wasn't there and my wife sometimes lacks the specificity when talking through things (doesn't help when she's on minimal sleep as the baby had kicked off in the early morning). That said, it seemed a good visit.

What I thought was a form of underpinning was in fact a thick section of the former floor which was left in place. From the top of my head all the houses in this terraced section have basements, but most are 1/2 height at best. Based on where our next door neighbours have refurbed their basement, I'd say that ours is now slightly shallower than their foundations. However the builders indicated that we probably wouldn't need planning permission nor a party wall agreement to do up the basement. They did say how unfortunate it was that the previous owners whacked a massive concrete pillar in the middle of the room to support the RSJs, as a much smaller hollow steel would do the job and open up the room a bit more. We could in fact install one, but it would mean messing around with the whole floor/screed and could cost a small fortune.

The loft conversion will need planning permission though unfortunately, and we think one of our neighbours will kick off about it.

I'll post a few drawings we've had done and will also update with the full report the builders produce.

 

[eviled]

Is the chimney breast big enough to put the range in? We've got a 110cm range in our kitchen chimney and it saves a lot of space

I don't see why removing that pillar would ruin the whole floor. Cut through it low down, break up the base to 1" below floor level - patch the screed

Why are you putting your main family living space in the basement out of interest? I've never been in a basement kitchen that wouldnt have been better a floor up.

Would this setup should work as the drain is at the level of the DPC, provide room for a cavity+ stud with insulation

 

[toshj]

Is the chimney breast big enough to put the range in? We've got a 110cm range in our kitchen chimney and it saves a lot of space

I don't see why removing that pillar would ruin the whole floor. Cut through it low down, break up the base to 1" below floor level - patch the screed

Why are you putting your main family living space in the basement out of interest? I've never been in a basement kitchen that wouldnt have been better a floor up.

Would this setup should work as the drain is at the level of the DPC, provide room for a cavity+ stud with insulation

Annoyingly, the footings/kerbs around the basement prevent us from putting the range cooker up against most of the walls. We can either wedge it under the bay window at the front, or attempt to tag it on to the end of an island (or in the middle of one). I'm slightly against the idea of putting it anywhere near the island as we'll then need to figure out extractor fan issues blocking out the small amount of sunlight we'll get from one window.

We've got two options - put it under the window within the bay space, or sell it and buy counter top hobs and a new oven. Doing the latter we'd then have a bit more flexibility over where we'd put it, including slotting it in the chimney breast.

The above waterproofing might work - thanks! Having given it a good looking over yesterday, the contractors felt that we might need to come up with a more creative solution rather than digging down into the screed. With all the rain we've been having they could see where parts of the walls had become damp: at the top of the kerb but with the age old membrane doing a decent job of preventing the water from accessing the floor.

The pillar work seems like it could just be a massive faff... however if we're moving out and the renovation could take quite a few months, I'm starting to considering installing a hollow steel instead. Costs depending.

We've got a few initial drawings up, although the loft is still to go:

Basement



Ground Floor



First Floor



All



Original Floor Plan



These are very early plans for us, and I can imagine the finished article will look quite different. Always happy to hear other people's thoughts on the plans, as we're open to ideas!

 

[eviled]

Why are you putting your main family living space in the basement out of interest? I've never been in a basement kitchen that wouldnt have been better a floor up.

 

[toshj]

Why are you putting your main family living space in the basement out of interest? I've never been in a basement kitchen that wouldnt have been better a floor up.

Maximising floor space. I want to ensure that we get full use out of the house, and ideally live across the four floors. There's very little value in spending all that money converting it and then rarely using it - our neighbours have a small utility room and spare bedroom and en suite in their basement that never gets used. If we put something down there that doesn't reflect the cost of the renovation then I feel it's not really worth it.

Ideally would be good to get as much floor space out of what in essence is a three bed terrace. The light downstairs is such that if you leave the basement open plan then there's a decent amount of it. The second walls get erected to create separate rooms then it becomes quite dark and unwelcoming. The thought of investing in making that area habitable and then storing bikes down there doesn't seem too appealing to me. Unfortunately a spare 700 sq ft in this part of town is a rare commodity. If we lived in a more pragmatic area of the country then I'd have probably gone down a different route.

We've gone big on the purchase so that we have the option of not moving again for 30+ years if we don't want to. I paid myself an awful lot less than I could have for a number of years so that we could skip the mid-sized house, and go from a flat to long term family house. The idea is to invest now whilst we can... and then never do anything like this ever again

 

[toshj]

Has anyone got any experience with planning permission, perhaps with difficult neighbours?

We're thinking about putting a dormer into our loft as part of the conversion. I've got a sneaky suspicion that our neighbours might object and I'm hoping to preempt this in anyway I can. Although terraced, our houses aren't fully symmetrical, and theirs extends back further than ours - especially as they have a raised decking outside their back door. I suppose you can kind off see their decking from the window of our rear bedroom (adjacent to the house) but there is a heightened fence that obscures it somewhat.

As things stand, I'm unsure whether the dormer would allow for a "loss of privacy" complaint as there's a chance we may be able to see more of this decking through the dormer - this I suppose all depends on where the dormer is placed in the roof, how wide and whether the windows wrap around the dormer frame or not.

The other consideration we have is that, as we're in a conservation area, there are probably more grounds for complaint than not. There are several houses with large dormers that back on to our garden, but on our road there has been very little in the way of loft conversion - just two I think, one with two very small dormers.

Any advice on this would be appreciated. Given that we're juggling several plates, I'd ideally not like to have to re-apply for the loft conversion in case the first application gets rejected.

 

[tom_nieto]

Are you applying for planning permission because it’s a conservation area? Dormers are well within permitted development rights and you might find that you only need planning for certain things. Our conservation area only required planning permission for changes to the front of the house, the rest was permitted development.

I would also add that an objection from a single set of neighbours doesn’t always mean an automatic rejection.

 

[toshj]

Are you applying for planning permission because it’s a conservation area? Dormers are well within permitted development rights and you might find that you only need planning for certain things. Our conservation area only required planning permission for changes to the front of the house, the rest was permitted development.

I would also add that an objection from a single set of neighbours doesn’t always mean an automatic rejection.

That's interesting - we were told by both architect and builder that we'd need planning permission to install a dormer as it was a requirement for the conservation rules. Other houses on the street have included rear dormers as part of loft conversions when applying for planning permission. But I'll certainly ask about the requirement if it's a rear window.

The objection concern is that the neighbour holds quite a bit of influence in the area, and could potentially drum up support...

 

[tom_nieto]

I’m sure you’ve been advised appropriately by your architect and builder.

Have you met your neighbours? Why do you think they’ll be trouble? I would knock on their door with detailed plans (a copy for them to keep) and your timescales and be polite. If there is precedent set by neighbours then that is a strong case for your plans to go ahead, especially if you’re doing a similar thing.

Remember - the neighbours can’t object solely on the basis of disruption during the build.

 

[toshj]

I’m sure you’ve been advised appropriately by your architect and builder.

Have you met your neighbours? Why do you think they’ll be trouble? I would knock on their door with detailed plans (a copy for them to keep) and your timescales and be polite. If there is precedent set by neighbours then that is a strong case for your plans to go ahead, especially if you’re doing a similar thing.

Remember - the neighbours can’t object solely on the basis of disruption during the build.

We've met the neighbours. They seem very nice, but also quite intent on us doing as little work as possible and putting small amounts of pressure on us to avoid some of it. They also seem to be treating us as if we're their children too...

Shortly before we moved in I went round theirs to chat about a few things. Even when lightly discussing a few plans we had I was met with pained and agonised faces and was explained to that the work was unnecessary and will interfere. Despite the fact they themselves have had work done. We keep on being told that there's no need to do the loft because they didn't do their loft and we don't need the room, but then also told we shouldn't convert the basement because it'll make too much noise (it's already mostly converted already).

The most recent example of their interference: we went round to ask where the boundary between our two houses was at the front as we were thinking of getting rid of the box hedge. They've got a low brick wall as their front fence. We were told that they would get back to us with their thoughts on the boundary location (it's literally a matter of cm). We then got a message saying that we had their permission to remove the hedge. Our own hedge. Of course they've got no say in whether we remove it or not, so we had a bit of an alarmed chuckle to ourselves about this. Them last week they revoked their permission and asked us not to get rid of the hedge because the road needs more greenery in their opinion...

They seem to have a reputation on the street as being very nice and friendly, but also they interfere with everything and gossip an awful. Some of the things some of the other neighbours have said aren't flattering. But their interference is becoming very frustrating - we found out that they'd taken it upon themselves to replace our fence (the one we own). They did it a while ago, before we bought the place, and then told us that it was our fence. They've given themselves the good side (I don't really care about this, but they've done it without consulting anyone) Of course, they've done it so that it matches their other fences... but of course it stands out like a sore thumb in our garden. They've also told us what plants need planting in our garden so that it'll be nice for them, our neighbours.

We basically need to keep them onside as much as possible during the planning application process, as they could well kick up a stink otherwise.

BUT - they are very nice about it. And they're the kind of people you want on your side. The whole thing is quite frustrating. My wife, being the pleasant person she is, is always trying to see the best in people and downplay this type of behaviour... but she's find it quite stressful.

/rant

 

[eviled]

How close is that island to the concrete column in the basement?

Having a new family and part renovated house myself I would say still the main living on ground floor, or you'll spend your whole life in the basement and then you'll be going down flights of stairs to get milk, up 2 stairs of flights to get kids ect. Trust me, the whole family spends most of the time in the kitchen - basement is much more suited to playroom/media room/utility

My neighbours were very similar to yours, but they are neighbours not fiends. We chat over the wall, odd bottles of wine as gifts, let them chuck stuff in our skips. We don’t bother discussing house plans even though their views are similarly fairly scathing

 

[toshj]

How close is that island to the concrete column in the basement?

It's about 80cm I think, however we're using that corner of the island as a "bar" area, so the counter top will overhang and there will be a couple of seats

Having a new family and part renovated house myself I would say still the main living on ground floor, or you'll spend your whole life in the basement and then you'll be going down flights of stairs to get milk, up 2 stairs of flights to get kids ect. Trust me, the whole family spends most of the time in the kitchen - basement is much more suited to playroom/media room/utility

It's about 80cm I think, however we're using that corner of the island as a "bar" area, so the counter top will overhang and there will be a couple of seats. The cost of doing the work would result in a loss to the value of the property if we didn't make full use of that space, I suspect. The light down there means that as soon as you put up stud walls, we'll end up creating 3-4 very dark rooms. I personally don't mind walking up and down stairs, and quite like the idea of the kitchen and dining room being in the guts of the house - and quite far away from the living rooms. Gives it a nice bit of separation.

The key for us is trying to figure out the waterproofing conundrum down there - there is an old membrane that sticks out from behind the concrete curbs, and it could certainly still be in fact and functioning... but the only way to know this would be for the place to flood. So we may end up "doubling up" on waterproofing certain areas. If we leave what's currently there as our main system, then we're going to have no warranty should it indeed flood.

My neighbours were very similar to yours, but they are neighbours not fiends. We chat over the wall, odd bottles of wine as gifts, let them chuck stuff in our skips. We don’t bother discussing house plans even though their views are similarly fairly scathing

It's a very delicate situation where any kind of push back from us will result in issues. It's like walking on a tightrope. Once we're out the other side of the planning for the dormer, then we can resume being normal, but for the next few months we're really going to have to play the game.

On another note - trees should be coming down in the next week or so, with the garden work to be starting thereafter.

 

[toshj]

We're not putting the kitchen downstairs anymore...

We're a bit stuffed but we're not going to have the requisite head height to make it work. It'll likely be 200cm in height... and I'm 193, and as you spend most of your time in the kitchen on your feet it doesn't seem practical to put the kitchen down there. Despite not being totally pleased about it, @eviled's advice is sound and we're going to put an office, a larger utility room and a living room down there.

What is a bit annoying is that we'd avoided all the kitchen sales in January as we weren't able to measure up the basement area - as the waterproof cavity system needed to be installed. Now that the kitchen is going to be on the ground floor, we could easily have got a discount on kitchen units as the room is easy to measure out