Screens/Keyboards and the effect on young peoples manual dexterity.

Soldato
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Heard an interesting comment on the radio yesterday.

Apparently medical schools are having difficulty training the up coming generation of new surgeons.

It would seem that people in their late teens early 20's simply do not have the fine manual dexterity that former generations had and struggle to acquire the fine motor skills necessary to preform the fine cuts and stitching necessary to be a surgeon.

The suggestion was made that there have been a whole generation of young people who have simply never done the sort of things with their hands that previous generations did as children and who therefore have simply not acquired the hand eye fine coordination and dexterity that older people take for granted.

Children of the 60's and 70's grew up making things out of stuff like Bilofix. Lego and Meccano (Very fiddly) Not to mention all the other model making type activities that I recall as being pretty routine.

A lot of play nowadays with younger people seems to involve jabbing at screens, buttons or keyboards.

While some of these activities are intellectually quite stimulating, they do nothing for developing fine motor control.

After all, you cant learn to ride a bike simply by watching somebody doing so on a youtube clip!

Are we as a society building up a potentially really quite big problem here??
 
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Meccano is brutal stuff. I got a ton of given a few years back and made two multi height stands for some of my consoles. I was on for weeks with it! :D
 
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It would seem that people in their late teens early 20's simply do not have the fine manual dexterity that former generations had and struggle to acquire the fine motor skills necessary to preform the fine cuts and stitching necessary to be a surgeon.

The suggestion was made that there have been a whole generation of young people who have simply never done the sort of things with their hands that previous generations did as children and who therefore have simply not acquired the hand eye fine coordination and dexterity that older people take for granted.

I was watching a thing about doctors in remote parts of the UK a while ago and one of them was a young woman who was training for surgery. She had a deal with the local butcher to provide pigs feet to her so that should could practice cutting tendons and flesh and stitching it back up because it's about as close as you can get to doing it to a person.

I imagine it has less to do with modern technology and more a lack of chances to actually perform surgical procedures for practice. I've even heard of tattoo artists that have trainees tattoo slabs of pig meat before they'll let them loose on customers.
 
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Yes - children/young-adults don't do as much DIY(chimney cleaning?), even clothing repair (buttons?), handwriting, kitchen skills too.

Don't hear as much about RSI these days, or skeletal issues that might arise in older age from touch/keyboard use.
maybe these fall into insignificance, compared to mental health issues.


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I concur. Even those who grew up without computers have noticed things like our standards of handwriting deteriorating badly.

Don't hear as much about RSI these days, or skeletal issues that might arise in older age from touch/keyboard use.
Repetitive Strain Injury.... Not much of a strain typing 160 characters at a time, though, is it!
 
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Meccano is brutal stuff. I got a ton of given a few years back and made two multi height stands for some of my consoles. I was on for weeks with it! :D


Did you know...?

That the instructions for the things that you could make out of Meccano contained deliberate mistakes.

The idea was that the children using it were not simply supposed to follow the instructions blindly, they were actually supposed to figure out the errors and solve them.

It really was an engineer training tool!

(Adults used it too. I have seen fantastic things made out of Meccano, One could even get small steam engines to power the models as well)
 
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Why would that be more of a problem now than in the past?

More rules, regulations, liability and a serious lack of cadavers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...uld-lead-to-shortage-of-surgeons-9570684.html

If you read the article, it blames bad education. OPs posts blames them damn millennials with their zippity doo das and whatchamacallsits. When the reality is, it's bad education due to lack of practical exposure to working on actual cadavers. And that article is from six years ago pointing out this would lead to a problem.
 
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More rules, regulations, liability and a serious lack of cadavers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...uld-lead-to-shortage-of-surgeons-9570684.html

If you read the article, it blames bad education. OPs posts blames them damn millennials with their zippity doo das and whatchamacallsits. When the reality is, it's bad education due to lack of practical exposure to working on actual cadavers. And that article is from six years ago pointing out this would lead to a problem.

Thanks. That doesn't necessarily disprove the point made in the OP of course. I know my handwriting has gone to absolute **** since I left school and stopped writing by hand although I haven't noticed a general deterioration in my dexterity, but then I'm not a surgeon.

As previously mentioned surgery will probably soon be performed by robots anyway, so all the surgeons will have to do will be to tap a touch screen :D
 
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As previously mentioned surgery will probably soon be performed by robots anyway, so all the surgeons will have to do will be to tap a touch screen :D

They already do. Kind of. Not like robots you find on assembly lines. Those are all pre-programmed and work within set tolerances. You'd have to re-write the entire software every time you changed a patient out for surgery. But they do use robotics controlled by surgeons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Vinci_Surgical_System

The biggest problem is aside from the deaths and associated lawsuits, closed source software in my opinion. Followed by cost of purchase and then maintenance and then I imagine the "right to repair" argument that farmers are battling with heavy plant machinery manufacturers should robots replace people. A human being can adapt to a change in situation immediately. Until AI competes with human intelligence, it's not going to replace surgeons any time soon.
 
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Did you know...?

That the instructions for the things that you could make out of Meccano contained deliberate mistakes.

The idea was that the children using it were not simply supposed to follow the instructions blindly, they were actually supposed to figure out the errors and solve them.

It really was an engineer training tool!

(Adults used it too. I have seen fantastic things made out of Meccano, One could even get small steam engines to power the models as well)

The steam engines were Mamod ones, I have a meths traction engine :)
 
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Steam (gorgeous smell too) was not really compatible with bedroom use, went electric with the rotating rim gear selector, and gear set.
- Is set 10, in the wooden draws still the top aspiration, don't remember the hierarchy for the Merit chemistry sets.
 
Soldato
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Did you know...?

That the instructions for the things that you could make out of Meccano contained deliberate mistakes.

The idea was that the children using it were not simply supposed to follow the instructions blindly, they were actually supposed to figure out the errors and solve them.

It really was an engineer training tool!

(Adults used it too. I have seen fantastic things made out of Meccano, One could even get small steam engines to power the models as well)

I had tonnes of Meccano as a kid which my fatherhad as a kid in the 1950s and i remember going to Meccano fairs as a young lad and buying more parts and electric motors. Hours of fun messing about with it all and hours of mischief too.

At the family home theres a photo of a 4 yr old me caught in the garden, mid swing, lopping flower heads off with a meccano sword i made lol

This nostalgia also reminded me of a meths stirling engine i had as well as a young lad and still have on a box at the rents.... just found an extremely similar one for sale new at 250 quid!
 
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Update...

And relevant additional (Admittedly anecdotal) information.

Just had my annual check up from my ophthalmic surgeon who did my cataract op some years ago.

Raised this very point. His experience is actually much the same as I mentioned in OP.

Youngsters coming into the trade just do not have the fine manual dexterity of former generations. It really is a big problem!

And yes, Surgery IS a trade really! it is a craft skill!

It doesn't matter how clever you are!

If you cant do the manual work. you cant do the job!

:p

My local hospital now has 4 Da-Vinci machines and whle they are not only amazing bits of kit, they also, to some extant have the ability to overcome at least some of these issues.

However, there are problems with this idea.

At the very least, is it really a good idea to end up with a generation of surgeons that cannot actually perform surgery?

(As I said, Ultimately Surgery is a craft skill. Master/apprentice and all that. I am OK with Robots being a tool, but not as a replacement of basic skills.)

Also, talking to the staff nurse today. The other problem is that everything takes very much longer.

The set up time etc for using the Robots doubles or even triples the time surgery takles.

What might have been a 90 minute Op for a skilled traditional surgeon is now a 5 hour one with the machine. This causes all sorts of other problems (Blood clots and god knows what. Long term anaesthetic really isnt good for you!)

The other one is how do you keep them clean?

The look I got from other peoples faces whwn I asked this sugests to me that this is a serious concern.

Anybody who has ever actually taken the back off a bit of modern hi-tech equipemt, whether it be a PC or a DVD player, will know that give it six weeks and the inside will look like a Rats nest!

How on earth are hospitals going to keep the insides of these incredibly complicated robots sterile?




 
Soldato
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Video games and exposure to technology at a young age are extremely useful for minimally invasive surgery. You can't teach visuospatial awareness very easily, but video games are a very good way to build those skills. Tarring the new generation with the broad brush strokes of a general "lack of fine manual dexterity" is very short sighted indeed and I would argue that a poor trainer is just as much to blame for a poor trainee. It's hard enough to attract new surgical recruits without rubbishing their skills before they've even started.

It's a huge topic to discuss and the difficulty facing surgeons in the future isn't down to any one factor. Surgical training is a pretty crazy journey.
 
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