AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

[smilertoo]

Why would Intel bother, they routinely change sockets.

 

[Gerard]

Why would Intel bother, they routinely change sockets.

What cpu was it they released the socket was already obsolete before it even hit the market? Think it was basically a 1 cpu motherboard fairly recently.

 

[ubersonic]

What cpu was it they released the socket was already obsolete before it even hit the market? Think it was basically a 1 cpu motherboard fairly recently.

I know this is the wrong answer but still relevant, the socket 423 platform was created specifically for Pentium IV and it didn't even last a whole generation, Intel realised they would need more pins to break the 2GHz barrier (and that they needed to do that faster than they expected due to Athlon XP being in full beast mode) so it was replaced by socket 478 nine months later, halfway through the launch of the first generation Pentium IV chips.

 

[Gerard]

I know this is the wrong answer but still relevant, the socket 423 platform was created specifically for Pentium IV and it didn't even last a whole generation, Intel realised they would need more pins to break the 2GHz barrier (and that they needed to do that faster than they expected due to Athlon XP being in full beast mode) so it was replaced by socket 478 nine months later, halfway through the launch of the first generation Pentium IV chips.

Remember the old rdram they were trying to push, ludicrously expensive at the time as well. They had to start giving away 128mb of it with cpu's as well.

 

[ubersonic]

Remember the old rdram they were trying to push, ludicrously expensive at the time as well. They had to start giving away 128mb of it with cpu's as well.

Oh yeah, that was amazing in all the wrong ways

Four times as fast as DDR!

Spoiler

(One quarter the bus width, no advantage in performance)

Dual channel!

Spoiler

(Memory will only operate when fitted in matching pairs)

Cheaper to fill the motherboard!

Spoiler

(Blank continuity RIMMs required in all empty slots)

Ahh those were the days xD

 

[ianh]

People have had 3 full years use with 3 full CPU upgrades available out of AM4 and now "AMD is the bad guy" because they need to drop supporting the older chips to push on with the newer chips, and somehow people are angry?

Hell I'm an Intel user so I've seen new sockets for almost every release so and this attitude of "I didn't get more than 3 years/3 CPU's, bad AMD!!!" amazes me, I guess people think that AMD is never allowed to change anything just in case people get mad.

 

[NinjaCool]

The problem is that we are now in a situation where some who invested in a B450/X470 board had specific plans to upgrade into a future Ryzen 4000 CPU.
Remember this type of talk had been ongoing for a long time, even MSI said their MAX line of boards would support all future AM4 CPUs.



AMD should have handled this situation better since they must have known for months about the bios size issues, and the fact that the B550 boards took such a long time to get out just made this issue worse.

 

[GregI]

"AMD executive confirmed to Tech Deals that they could support Zen 3 on older motherboards, but decided not to do it for business reasons”. 1:11:14 Timestamped

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzrnCniI7IM&feature=youtu.be&t=4273

 

[Martini1991]

People have had 3 full years use with 3 full CPU upgrades available out of AM4 and now "AMD is the bad guy" because they need to drop supporting the older chips to push on with the newer chips, and somehow people are angry?

Hell I'm an Intel user so I've seen new sockets for almost every release so and this attitude of "I didn't get more than 3 years/3 CPU's, bad AMD!!!" amazes me, I guess people think that AMD is never allowed to change anything just in case people get mad.

AM4's had 3 CPU's, so it's logically only 2 CPU upgrades (And only really one upgrade worth while).

I'd have no problems with this if it was a proper technical reason, but ROM sizes is wishy washy as legitimate as it may be, it was entirely foreseeable and avoidable by all involved.

The logic of using the AM4 socket support graph that people are using doesn't work either, because AM4's still going past that graph.

 

[LePhuronn]

Foreseeable sure, but not avoidable.

If you were top motherboard guy at Asus, Gigabyte, etc. and AMD - fresh off the back of Faildozer - came to you wanting motherboards that had ROM sizes big enough to support 4 generations of upcoming and unproven CPUs (with power delivery to match), would you do so or laugh them out of the building? AMD want you to sacrifice a portion of your upgrade market for the next 3 generations based on a rubbish track history for 5 years and unsubstantiated claims?

No, you'd tell them to get lost, wouldn't you. Hell, I'd wager they'd have issue with Intel trying the same (as is evident by most Z490 boards not supporting PCIe 4).

ROM sizes is not "wishy washy", it's legitimate and already reared it's ugly head when Zen 2 launched. It's a **** reason yes, but it's a real reason. And I say again, what's the bigger mindshare killer for AMD? A handful of enthusiasts crying because their assumptions were wrong about getting 4 generations of CPU on a single motherboard, or the common public buying any AM4 CPU and any AM4 motherboard and finding it doesn't work, not understanding why and then ******** on AMD because "they're so cheap they can't even get their own CPUs to work, I'm buying Intel".

 

[Martini1991]

Foreseeable sure, but not avoidable.

If you were top motherboard guy at Asus, Gigabyte, etc. and AMD - fresh off the back of Faildozer - came to you wanting motherboards that had ROM sizes big enough to support 4 generations of upcoming and unproven CPUs (with power delivery to match), would you do so or laugh them out of the building? AMD want you to sacrifice a portion of your upgrade market for the next 3 generations based on a rubbish track history for 5 years and unsubstantiated claims?

No, you'd tell them to get lost, wouldn't you. Hell, I'd wager they'd have issue with Intel trying the same (as is evident by most Z490 boards not supporting PCIe 4).

ROM sizes is not "wishy washy", it's legitimate and already reared it's ugly head when Zen 2 launched. It's a **** reason yes, but it's a real reason. And I say again, what's the bigger mindshare killer for AMD? A handful of enthusiasts crying because their assumptions were wrong about getting 4 generations of CPU on a single motherboard, or the common public buying any AM4 CPU and any AM4 motherboard and finding it doesn't work, not understanding why and then ******** on AMD because "they're so cheap they can't even get their own CPUs to work, I'm buying Intel".

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by the bolded part.

AM4 is still here.
It's entirely possible for joe public to buy a Ryzen 4XXX and any AM4 board and it not work, since only specific chipsets will work (Despite not being a chipset limitation...........)

And of course it's avoidable lol.
Seriously, we're talking MB's of storage here, how much really does this cost?

And as you've alluded to, it's happened already with Zen 2, so therefore clearly avoidable and able to be worked around? Doesn't require a year to pass and then dropped as bombshell for dropped support for chipsets.

This to me is just more people giving AMD a pass as they always do.

To be honest, I doubted the claims from the likes of Humbug from day one about how support would be (And probably came under flack by doing so, because AMD bias), because as an objective buyer I've seen AMD drop support for chipsets and sockets quite easily (AM3, FM2 etc)

 

[The Old School Gamer]

Supporting older chipsets does not help sell newer X570 and B550 motherboards, that's the truth of the matter.

It certainly does put MSI in an awkward situation with the TOMAHAWK MAX.
All they can really say is AMD made the call, not us.

Personally I'm not that fussed.
Normally I would try to get 2 to 3 years life out of each build anyway.
Hence my next upgrade will probably be Zen 4, X670 and DDR5.

 

[LePhuronn]

I'm confused as to why you're confused. The entire point is AM4 is still in use, but Zen 3 is locked out on 300 and 400 series chipsets, and 500 series chipsets don't support some earlier Ryzen generations. So Joe Public can't go out and pair any AM4 CPU and AM4 motherboard and expect it to work, because there are some combinations that won't.

So rather than making the compatibility state even more messy than it is already, AMD have taken the decision to draw a line and clean it up. I don't like it because, as an enthusiast, I know it's bull in some cases, but I entirely understand why they've done it and I actually support it.

And of course it's avoidable lol.
Seriously, we're talking MB's of storage here, how much really does this cost?

Perhaps if everybody stopped fixating on ROM sizes and look at the bigger picture then you'd stop banging this drum. It's not about the cost of the ROM, it's about the loss in revenue by not selling new boards every generation, especially at the beginning when Ryzen was unproven.

I really fail to see why this is so hard for people to grasp. Motherboard vendors had zero confidence in Ryzen at the start, so they simply did not invest in their boards. Why the hell should motherboard vendors build their kit around 4 generations of CPUs when they have literally nothing to support that ROI? AMD similarly, AMD would have zero leverage in demanding such support be part of the design spec.

So underdeveloped boards (even with some 400 series) with small ROM sizes. Mobo vendors' business decisions are now biting AMD in the ass, but it's down to AMD to live with it and clean it up.

Really not hard to grasp.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

People have had 3 full years use with 3 full CPU upgrades available out of AM4 and now "AMD is the bad guy" because they need to drop supporting the older chips to push on with the newer chips, and somehow people are angry?

Hell I'm an Intel user so I've seen new sockets for almost every release so and this attitude of "I didn't get more than 3 years/3 CPU's, bad AMD!!!" amazes me, I guess people think that AMD is never allowed to change anything just in case people get mad.

Why do people keep repeating this all the time. Is it so hard to understand that a mainstream buyer of Zen2 who bought a Zen2 system in the last 11 months, now has had less than a year of use of their motherboard before it is EOL.

So AMD on purpose held back on the B550 until next month,ie,one year after the Zen2 launch to do so forcing most mainstream buyers onto B450.

AMD on purpose said nothing for 12 months despite posting on social media. They did nothing about releasing an intermediate chipset when Zen2 was launched and nothing about specifying larger BIOS chips as part of the reference specification.

The same people who criticised Intel for doing this are now saying since AMD does it it's fine.

Supporting older chipsets does not help sell newer X570 and B550 motherboards, that's the truth of the matter.

It certainly does put MSI in an awkward situation with the TOMAHAWK MAX.
All they can really say is AMD made the call, not us.

Personally I'm not that fussed.
Normally I would try to get 2 to 3 years life out of each build anyway.
Hence my next upgrade will probably be Zen 4, X670 and DDR5.

So basically all the people mocking Intel for the last few years,should eat humble pie and say the Intel way was OK in what it did,because they deserve to sell more motherboards. Because that is why Intel does it! But even people like Asus went out and told people Intel was stopping them from adding support to earlier Intel motherboards.

Also don't you think if they said B450 would not support Zen3 last year,they would have surely sold more X570 motherboards??

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by the bolded part.

AM4 is still here.
It's entirely possible for joe public to buy a Ryzen 4XXX and any AM4 board and it not work, since only specific chipsets will work (Despite not being a chipset limitation...........)

And of course it's avoidable lol.
Seriously, we're talking MB's of storage here, how much really does this cost?

And as you've alluded to, it's happened already with Zen 2, so therefore clearly avoidable and able to be worked around? Doesn't require a year to pass and then dropped as bombshell for dropped support for chipsets.

This to me is just more people giving AMD a pass as they always do.

To be honest, I doubted the claims from the likes of Humbug from day one about how support would be (And probably came under flack by doing so, because AMD bias), because as an objective buyer I've seen AMD drop support for chipsets and sockets quite easily (AM3, FM2 etc)

Agreed entirely Martini. The amount of cognitive dissonance shown by AMD fans is utterly hilarious. They put AMD on some massive moral pedestal of being the "good guys" and slamming Intel and Nvidia repeatedly over stuff they do,ie,Intel pulling similar tricks.

However,when AMD do it,they are the "good guys" and give them a pass.

I still remember when they did the whole socket 754,AM2,AM3,FM1 and FM2 thing. I think some here are too young to remember this,or just have selective memory.

The problem is that we are now in a situation where some who invested in a B450/X470 board had specific plans to upgrade into a future Ryzen 4000 CPU.
Remember this type of talk had been ongoing for a long time, even MSI said their MAX line of boards would support all future AM4 CPUs.



AMD should have handled this situation better since they must have known for months about the bios size issues, and the fact that the B550 boards took such a long time to get out just made this issue worse.

Don't bother,as some are falling on their sword defending AMD,as I said they would before.

They miscommunicated things to so many people,including system integators.



Things like this have been shown again and again,and they on purpose ignore eveything,and bury it to avoid criticism of AMD.

 

[LePhuronn]

So AMD on purpose held back on the B550 until next month

AMD on purpose said nothing for 12 months despite posting on social media.

Prove it was intentional. Prove there was a deliberate act to screw people. Prove it.

They did nothing about releasing an intermediate chipset when Zen2 was launched

Why would they release an "intermediate chipset"? What form was such a thing even take?

...and nothing about specifying larger BIOS chips as part of the reference specification.

Prove it.

The same people who criticised Intel for doing this are now saying since AMD does it it's fine.

Literally nobody is saying that. Just because I agree with AMD's decision and reasons for doing so, doesn't mean I'm happy about it. In fact I'm quite ****** off because I bought a pair of Mortar MAX boards for the express purpose of running to Zen 3. But I'm not going to get my whinging pitchforks out like you and others are doing just because my assumptions were wrong.

While you're at it, do you want to go back and restart mewling over the 5GHz 16 core we never got because our collective assumptions were proven wrong there too?

 

[Martini1991]

Literally nobody is saying that. Just because I agree with AMD's decision and reasons for doing so, doesn't mean I'm happy about it. In fact I'm quite ****** off because I bought a pair of Mortar MAX boards for the express purpose of running to Zen 3. But I'm not going to get my whinging pitchforks out like you and others are doing just because my assumptions were wrong.

While you're at it, do you want to go back and restart mewling over the 5GHz 16 core we never got because our collective assumptions were proven wrong there too?

It wasn't people assuming support, it explicitly MARKETED future support.

 

[MartinPrince]

I suspect this decision is not so much pushed by AMD but by the motherboard vendours. AMD may loose out on the odd percent of 4000 sales but the motherboard makers will shift way more units and also save themselves some major headaches in the process with not having to update older boards.

I had one of the original B450 Tomahawks and remember all too well the hassle and complaints they had trying to get what was probably the most popular B450 board to work with Ryzen 3000. I personally had no problem whatsoever, just did the flashback but many people didn't have my experience.

Probably the only thing AMD can to do now is ride rough shod through the cognitive dissonance caused by the gap between reality and the expectations of the majority of its patrons owning B450 x470 etc boards.

 

[Joxeon]

More proof AMD was saying that AM4 boards purchased in 2017 would run CPUs in 2020 with just a bios update.

Around 18minutes in the video in a interview with OCUK.

https://hothardware.com/news/amd-confirms-am4-socket-support-future-ryzen-processors-2020

 

[gavinh87]

The excuses given by AMD are bull.
There are b450 boards out there with bigger rom sizes than certain x570 boards.
There's nothing stopping them removing the older files for 1st gen ryzen to make room for newer cpus so those of us that are savvy enough to perform a bios update dont need to upgrade.
Its not outside AMDs reach especially given how the radeon team have been pushing people to update their vbios for faster memory....
The AMD fan boys have already come chirping in to defend but this decision is no better than when intel force a motherboard change.

 

[Doobedoo]

So having looked over the specs for my x570 Tachi it would appear that I have a 32MB bios. Who is responsible for that? Is that Asrock or Amd?

Should have known Gavin would pop up . Longtime Gavin you ok?