Cables and Snake Oil

Soldato
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Why would a measurement need to be blind tested? This isnt a claim that cant be backed up with measurement, its a measurement that you're dismissing because it hasn't been blind tested? what on earth are you trying to do? :confused: why are you so against the idea that twin flex isnt always the answer? Why does that wind you up soo much? It's not like i'm saying don't use twin flex. Why would I, it works fine on my big old onkyo amp and just about everything else I've ever owned. In most cases it really is enough. But you know what? if you want to know if you can hear a drop of 3.5db at 18khz, then just try it - set up an eq and drop it in that region? Can you hear it? You bet your backside you should hear it. And feel free to disprove those findings in th earticle, though just like that $1m reward, nobody has managed it yet and as you quite rightly pointed out (however insidiously) - that article was written 20 years ago. So it's stood rather well then, in my books.

dowie said:
You've repeatedly quoted me to essentially nit pick/argue some edge case relating to a specific speaker and some claimed issue with inductance
round and round and round you go. It doesn't make what you are saying any more coherent. This is all just noise, pardon the pun. It's about the right cable for the job and it doesn't have to be expensive. I am not nit picking if a blanket statement is demonstrably false. You need to stop with that angle as it simple isn't true. A thick copper cable isn't always the best answer. It might 'work', it might even be 'enough', but it isn't optimal. "nobody is going to tell a decent well made cable from an ordinary thick bit of copper" - that was your claim, that was wrong and that's what I took issue with. Stop trying to muddy the discussion with cost. Cost is irrelevant to this (our) particular discussion.

audiholics said:
If one owns an amplifier that gets squirrelly with certain cables or is even bothered by cables at all, it is best to consider a better, not necessarily more expensive, amplifier that is not so touchy because using cables in this way does not solve the fundamental problem that still exists with the amplifier. It is this engineer’s opinion that any properly designed amplifier, one with low output impedance, proper usage of negative feedback, and a good power supply, is the best way to solve cable problems, and it would seem to be the solution favored by the authors as well.

Firstly, this relates to the issue where some amplifiers can oscillate if the cable inductance is too low. Not at all related to what I'm talking about and it's easily solved without buying a new amp (ching ching $$$).

This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability.

Annnnd that's what I've said from the beginning. A thick bit of twin flex isn't necessarily properly designed for the application.

stop now, Dowie.
 
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Caporegime
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Why would a measurement need to be blind tested? [...]

I never said measurements should be blind tested, you've somewhat missed the point there.

It's about the right cable for the job and it doesnt have to be expensive. I am not nit picking if a blanket statement is demonstrable false. You need to stop with that angle as it simple isnt true. A thick copper cable isn't always the best answer. It might 'work', it might even be 'enough', but it isn't optimal. "nobody is going to tell a decent well made cable from an ordinary thick bit of copper" - that was your claim, that was wrong and that's what I took issue with. Stop trying to muddy the discussion with cost. Cost is irrelevant to this (our) particular discussion.

It's not demonstrably false though and you were nit picking - now you've even gone so far as to change the quote in order to pretend I've made some other claim - please use the quote function if you're not able to copy and paste instead of making up something and attributing it to me. Cost was the whole point and if you look at the post I made I referred to "high end" cables... you've deliberately changed that to "decent well made cable" as if I was disputing the decent well made aspect when that was what I was in favour of!

the actual quote is:

"In reality it’s more like you could perhaps notice some really thin, low quality cables but realistically no one is going to tell a well made “high end” cable vs some decent but ordinary thick copper cable."

from this post here:

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/33623625/

(note - well made is a condition for the high end cables too as you could have badly made, thin etc.. high end cables and obviously there could be a difference)

You've turned this into some straw man argument where you're trying some edge case based on a bit of 1mm twin flex, or claiming I'm arguing against decent cables.... when my argument was against "high end" cables and the snake oil associated with them... note again I specified "decent" and "thick"...

This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability.
Annnnd that's what I've said from the beginning.

no it isn't:

that just isnt true. Even well constructed cables can sound different with different amp and speaker combinations.

A decent copper cable is all you need, it's as good as any other... you're the one bringing up "a bit of twin flex" btw... because it was mentioned in the article to show some edge case. What is wrong with say some Amazon Basics or Van Damme cables?

This idea that a properly designed cable is as good as any other isn't what you've supported here, you said it yourself earlier on in that post: "It's about the right cable for the job", or in a previous post "Even well constructed cables can sound different" - you've continually nit picked and thrown in stuff about some edge case involving some specific speaker and a bit of twin flex. No other comparisons..

stop now, Dowie.

No, sorry but this is the consumer part of the forum and frankly I think snake oil/nonsense deserves to be called out. And that's all I did, I argued against "high end" cables in favour of decent, thick copper cable.

Over complicating by trying to bring up some edge case with a specific speaker or just frankly changing some quote and pretending I've argued something else is rather dubious so doing that then telling me to stop is frankly rude.

My position is in line with that of the audioholics article I quoted in my previous post - these high end cables are just snake oil, all you need is some (note the wording) decent, thick copper cable... as they say "a properly designed cable is as good as any other" - you on the other hand are trying to place some emphasis on some edge case involving a particular speaker and have claimed "It's about the right cable for the job ", "even well constructed cables can sound different".

Again I'm not saying "just use twin flex", I'm not supporting the use of coat hangers in general use, that article was just to demonstrate a point about how these differences can be pretty much non-existant in general.
 
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Soldato
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Dowie,

I originally was going to reply to you quote for quote, but frankly that's just bloody tiresome and nobody likes reading that ****. So instead, I'll say this.


You were asking me if the data presented in the article is backed up by a blind test, because you think without one it's irrelevant. But of course that isnt the case. Like i said, it isnt a la la account than needs backing up with data, it's data you are trying soo hard to dismiss because it wasnt blind tested. Nonsense. There doesnt need to be a test showing if somebody heard a difference or not when the measurements are there. A 3.5db drop in response is, as most of us know, pretty audible especially if that's a steady slope down from the upper mid range which would usually be the case. That doesnt need to be backed up by a blind test as we have the numbers. Numbers prove blind tests, not the other way around.

Posting a link to that Rhandi reward never helped your cause. You didnt read the specifics properly (and didnt realise the reward was open to prove the claims a manufacturer made about one specific cable). But also, that manufacture never posted any real numbers, just claims of improvements using whatever fanatasy jargon they originally used. That is not the case here, so posting that in an effort to bolster your argument only has the opposite effect - it weakens it.

Now, as for me apparently misquoting you, I said you said: "nobody is going to tell a decent well made cable from an ordinary thick bit of copper". What you actually said was (and i have quoted it already :o): "no one is going to tell a well made “high end” cable vs some decent but ordinary thick copper cable". They amount to the same thing, so that's some very high level nit pickery there. This, also, does not help you. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by claiming i misquoted you, but really that doesnt matter. You know what you said, it's there in your original post and it's there when i quoted it. For somebody who likes to call out nitpicking, you sure are good at it yourself.


As for cables this is my last reply to you on the subject. Take it or leave it. High end cables do not need to be expensive. The cost is irrelevant. What matters is the construction. Cables, any analogue cables, need to be built for the task. In the case of speakers, the majority of the time, a well shielded OFC twin flex will absolutely do the job just fine, as long as it's sufficiently thick. There are times, however, when it isnt enough and in fact that thinkness can cause more problems than it solves. Now, i mentioned Electrostats initially not because it's all I can think of, but because thats the most obvious case where thinner, woven or plaited cables can very much outperform any twinflex. That doesn't mean that these cables are universally better and in some cases the additional capacitance of such cables can cause as many problems as the cables solve with some systems. This is the very reason why i said use the right cable for the job. Again, it doesnt have to be expensive. It just needs to be built correctly. I'm sorry if you think that's overcomplicating thing but, really, it's all very simple and there's only soo many ways this can be explained. You say I'm the one that bought up twin flex but...you realise that's what standard speaker cable is, right? I'm not sure why you feel the need to point that out as if it's something wrong - I'm just being clear about the cables in question, because again there are other cables that can be built rather cheaply that solve the issues in those cases and they are not twin-flex.

Anyway, I'm not going to get drawn in to your attempts to drag this discussion down any further. I have given you no strawman argument, i have presented no BS. You on the other hand are trying your damned hardest to call an article on a website that has entire sections dedicated to disproving audio myths 'BS'. This is a site that's owned and run by an audio engineer who designs amplifiers, power supplies, equalisers and loads of other good stuff that you or I can download the schematics for and build ourselves. You want to try and call it BS and dismiss my argument along with it because you either don't understand it or don't want to accept it. I no longer care whether you believe the truth or not. Thankfully, it affects me not one little bit. If you are prepared to disprove the numbers presented in that article, though, then again - I'm all ears. Good luck and if you manage it I'll be the first person to say I was wrong.
 
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Caporegime
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Again you miss the point re: blind testing here. I didn't ask you if the data was backed by the blind test I asked about blind tests in general of speaker cables - AFAIK inductance is a very minor issue, you've demonstrated an edge case with 8 meters of 1mm twin flex, not exactly "decent" cable tbh... is it a common issue in "well made" cables? I already replied re: the million dollar challenge, the cable was literally intended, in part, to solve the potential issue you highlighted.

And yes you did present a straw man argument, you literally made up a quote and stated it was my claim when it wasn't.

My claim is here - you initially objected to the bit in bold:

It’s the latter in most cases AFAIK... this stuff gets muddled by golden ears types spouting BS based on theoretical difference that can’t be perceived or just plain BS. The diminishing returns idea is what they’d love to be the truth... that yes it’s a minor difference but they’re so sophisticated etc.. they can spot it ergo must by into lots of extra woo...

In reality it’s more like you could perhaps notice some really thin, low quality cables but realistically no one is going to tell a well made “high end” cable vs some decent but ordinary thick copper cable.

As for the special power leads... just LOL.

In your previous to last post you tried to pretend I was objecting to well made cables - my objection here is to the overpriced snake oil that is "high end" cables... i.e. the ones sold at a high price with plenty of dubious claims made about them

I think this is a good summary of cables and I have no reason to disagree with the conclusions:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/pear-cable-science
It far more likely that a particular cable design will not have any effect on audio quality at all and, although a remote possibility either way, at least as likely that the cable properties are not complimentary to a particular system as it is likely that they are complimentary. This is most certainly not what high priced cable manufacturers are claiming when they try to sell their wares.

This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability.

The only argument you've presented is some claim re: some 1mm "twin flex" and an issue with a specific set of speakers... but your claim was:

that just isnt true. Even well constructed cables can sound different with different amp and speaker combinations.

I'm not sure what exactly your problem is with my position, but you've repeatedly quoted me here to argue the toss over some edge case involving some twin flex... and then pretended that my position was something else + seemingly got worked up to the point where you've told me to stop replying when I've replied politely to simply point out that isn't the case or to ask further questions and state I'm open to edge cases etc.. and lastly to highlight that you've deliberately misquoted me.

My position is still the same any decent (thick) copper cable is fine.. if you want I can change "decent" to "properly designed" if that would make you happier? Either way I agree with the article I posted. You seem to have backtracked on the "even well constructed" claim or at least not supported it.

AFAIK resistance is a bigger potential issue, capacitance and inductance are generally a bit more trivial.

My main point here though before I got multiple quotes referring to this case involving 1mm twin flex and a specific speaker was that "high end" cables are a waste of money and that ordinary decent, thick copper cables are fine. They don't need to cost much at all - no one needs special silver cables etc.. or special coatings etc.. to improve musicality or whatever audiophile claims get made... it's pure snake oil. That's all... so I'm not quite sure why you're so keen to both misrepresent what I've said and or keep on arguing over some other position. This isn't a politics issue, it's simply a technical one. :)
 
Soldato
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I wouldnt fixate on the cross section of the twin flex used in that article, either.

It varies quite a lot depending on construction but, a typical 1mm twin flex might have an inductance of 0.25uH per ft, whereas a 16 guage 2.05mm twin flex might sit around 0.16uH/ft. It sounds significant until you consider that you can build a cable very cheaply with an inductance of 1/4 of that figure or lower.

ie:http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/Low-Inductance-DIY-Speaker-Cables/

Simple DIY cables, measured inductance of 0.05uH per ft. I'm not sure any twin core cable would get down that low no matter how thick it was. The point is, in the grand scheme of things the size of the cable they tested wouldnt have made much if any difference to the rolloff in the frequency response.

There's no snake oil, cables do make a difference. But that depends on how thick they are, how long they are, what they are constructed from and what kind of signal you are sending through them. That's where it becomes a big ol' drum of snake oil.

A well constructed cable doesnt have to be expensive. And an expensive cable isnt necessarily well contructed...and two well constructed cables can sound different especially if your speakers are difficult to drive.

No strawman, no BS.
 
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Caporegime
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I don't disagree with the first two points, though you've not shown the last point. You showed it could be an issue with some basic twin flex cable and a specific speaker and and I'm not disputing that it could be an issue with a long run of cables...

My point is that you don't need expensive cables and that "high end" cables are snake oil.

As for "no straw man" - you made up a quote and pretended I was arguing against "decent well made cables"

you say my claim is this:

"nobody is going to tell a decent well made cable from an ordinary thick bit of copper" - that was your claim, that was wrong and that's what I took issue with.

You made that up, that's literally a straw man argument - what I actually said was:

It’s the latter in most cases AFAIK... this stuff gets muddled by golden ears types spouting BS based on theoretical difference that can’t be perceived or just plain BS. The diminishing returns idea is what they’d love to be the truth... that yes it’s a minor difference but they’re so sophisticated etc.. they can spot it ergo must by into lots of extra woo...

In reality it’s more like you could perhaps notice some really thin, low quality cables but realistically no one is going to tell a well made “high end” cable vs some decent but ordinary thick copper cable.

As for the special power leads... just LOL.

My argument was against "high end cables"... that you wouldn't tell a difference between a decent, thick copper cable and well made high end... I condition it on well made for the high end cable too as you can also get badly made high end cables and you could then have differences.

So I don't disagree that a well made cable doesn't have to be expensive (that's literally my point), I don't disagree that not all high end cable are well made... I'm well aware of that, I took that into account when making the claim you stated wasn't true. I doubt that there is generally any difference between well made/decent thick copper cables and well made high end stuff - I don't doubt that once you start dragging out say over 10 meters of the stuff then some of the insignificant issues can become issues but meh...

I'm sticking with the Audiolics stance:

"This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability."
 
Soldato
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"nobody is going to tell a decent well made cable from an ordinary thick bit of copper"

vs

"no one is going to tell a well made “high end” cable vs some decent but ordinary thick copper cable."

There's no difference in those two statements. You must be reading something I'm not.

MEH.

no one is going to tell a well made “high end” cable vs some decent but ordinary thick copper cable.

In most cases this is true enough, however there are valid reasons to use cables of a particular construction (ie, not twinflex) where the speakers can present difficult loads for an amplifier. Some crossovers can make life difficult for an amp, but also Electrostats most certainly benefit from low impedance speaker cables, lower than what you can achieve with any standard twin flex cable - for that you need braided or woven cables. They dont need to be expensive though.

So, your statement isn't universally true.

Is that better? are we done with the pedantry now?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moving on...
 
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Caporegime
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"nobody is going to tell a decent well made cable from an ordinary thick bit of copper"

vs

"no one is going to tell a well made “high end” cable vs some decent but ordinary thick copper cable."

There's no difference in those two statements. You must be reading something I'm not.

MEH.

Well perhaps count the number of words used... spot which ones are missing and spot the ones you added (just use the quote function instead if you struggle with this). How many times do I have to tell you that my point is about high end cables... note the word "decent" as well as "thick" re: copper cable... which you removed not just some "bit of" (your own insertion) copper

you pretended that I argued against well made cables I'm saying there isn't any difference between "decent"/well made cables... point being that high end cables are a waste of money! I already pointed this out twice...

In most cases this is true enough, however there are valid reasons to use cables of a particular construction (ie, not twinflex) where the speakers can present difficult loads for an amplifier. Some crossovers can make life difficult for an amp, but also Electrostats most certainly benefit from low impedance speaker cables, lower than what you can achieve with any standard twin flex cable - for that you need braided or woven cables. They dont need to be expensive though.

So, your statement isn't universally true.

Is that better? are we done with the pedantry now?

You brought up the pedantry in the first place so you can tell me if we're done with it tbh...

You've shown a claim that some 1mm copper twin flex has a potentially noticeable issue in the high frequencies with a certain speaker.

I can't see a good reason to disagree with the article I linked to tbh... and the claim:

"This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability."

Frankly I think you're overemphasising this possible impedance issue and it pointlessly muddies things - sure on a long run of cable it might become an issue, or if you literally get some cheap 1mm twin flex from a hardwear store and run it 8m as per your article then connect to one of these difficult speakers then perhaps it is noticeable in the high range.

I've not seen much to concern me about the typical ordinary copper speaker cables though and you've not provided anything showing that say some specially braided cable vs say some ordinary 4mm or 6mm copper Van Damme cables would make any noticable difference here... I'm open to the idea and you claimed: "There are plenty of sites out there that demonstrate the affect of inductance on difficult to drive speakers"

I suspect it is overrated; capacitance and inductance are less important AFAIK than resistance in speaker cables and unless you're talking about a long run I suspect it's not really noticeable. If you want to be pedantic about then I'm open to seeing some evidence to support this stuff... Some blind testing perhaps? :)
 
Soldato
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Oh dear, ok. One last time just for you.

Well perhaps count the number of words used... spot which ones are missing and spot the ones you added (just use the quote function instead if you struggle with this). How many times do I have to tell you that my point is about high end cables... note the word "decent" as well as "thick" re: copper cable... which you removed not just some "bit of" (your own insertion) copper

And how many times and in how many different ways do i have to tell you that high end cable vary both in quality and construction techniques. two high end cables can both be well constructed and both sound different with difficult loads. It's a really simple concept that you just aren't understanding.

you pretended that I argued against well made cables I'm saying there isn't any difference between "decent"/well made cables... point being that high end cables are a waste of money! I already pointed this out twice...
Nope, misunderstanding on your part still. I never and HAVE NEVER argued that high end cables are worth the money. I said they can still sound different. Different to each other and different to "decent but ordinary thick copper cable.". So your original statement was false, whether you think I misquoted it or not. It's wrong.

You brought up the pedantry in the first place so you can tell me if we're done with it tbh...
I'm not really sure what you even mean here? you are the pedant, arguing i said something i never did. Besides, i already told you to stop but you keep going so...? do you want a shovel for that hole, i guess?

You've shown a claim that some 1mm copper twin flex has a potentially noticeable issue in the high frequencies with a certain speaker.
not "some 1mm copper", ANY twin flex. and I've explained why already.

Frankly I think you're overemphasising this possible impedance issue and it pointlessly muddies things - sure on a long run of cable it might become an issue, or if you literally get some cheap 1mm twin flex from a hardwear store and run it 8m as per your article then connect to one of these difficult speakers then perhaps it is noticeable in the high range.

I dont care what you think, dowie. you made a blanket statement and you were wrong. Did you say impedance instead of inductance to try and trip my up so you can call me the pedant (when it's you), or are you still not listening?

I've not seen much to concern me about the typical ordinary copper speaker cables though and you've not provided anything showing that say some specially braided cable vs say some ordinary 4mm or 6mm copper Van Damme cables would make any noticable difference here... I'm open to the idea and you claimed: "There are plenty of sites out there that demonstrate the affect of inductance on difficult to drive speakers"

So go find them? I've given you one, now you disprove it.

I suspect it is overrated; capacitance and inductance are less important AFAIK than resistance in speaker cables and unless you're talking about a long run I suspect it's not really noticeable. If you want to be pedantic about then I'm open to seeing some evidence to support this stuff... Some blind testing perhaps? :)

AFAIK indeed. you have a lot to learn.
 
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Caporegime
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Oh joy... a load of multiquotes

I'm well aware that high end cables can vary in quality, I said that myself.
However now not only have you managed to misquote me in the previous post you're also now interpreting me re-emphasising the point I was making as some misrepresentation of what you claimed?

Where did I argue you said something you never did? That's what you did to me with your deliberate misquote!

Yes I did accidentally mix up impedance and inductance at one point in that last post... my bad - that's the result of tying out a reply quickly no it wasn't to trip you up... I'm really not sure where you're coming from here or why you've gotten so worked up about my straight forward statement dismissing high end cables.

I'm happy with the claim I made thanks, I don't see anything wrong with the claim from audioholics, this aligns with my view:

"This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability."

Again my argument is against high end cables and for whatever reason you've decided to repeatedly quote me because you're determined to point out that an ordinary decent, thick copper cable isn't good enough... not because you agree with high end cables but because you have some edge case involving some 1mm twin flex... that seems a bit pedantic tbh... and I'm not convinced it is much of an issue in reality with some decent/well made cables (say some 4mm or 6mm copper Van Damme cables) at least not unless you're doing a long run or something.
 
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Lol you guys.

Give me a properly done scientific study proving any of this snake oil BS actually has verifiable and measurable differences, beyond any doubt (and removing human bias) and I'll believe it. Until that proof exists (it doesn't, that is why it's always excuses, and my personal favourite, 'science can't prove everything'), I will remain firmly in the 'this doesn't make a sod of difference' camp.

Special circumstances exist, such as shielding needed for huge runs of cables in studios to prevent loss of power over long distances, but that's about it.
 
Soldato
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Lol you guys.

Give me a properly done scientific study proving any of this snake oil BS actually has verifiable and measurable differences, beyond any doubt (and removing human bias) and I'll believe it. Until that proof exists (it doesn't, that is why it's always excuses, and my personal favourite, 'science can't prove everything'), I will remain firmly in the 'this doesn't make a sod of difference' camp.

Special circumstances exist, such as shielding needed for huge runs of cables in studios to prevent loss of power over long distances, but that's about it.

I don't mind terribly even if it's personal belief that causes your brain to interpret things differently so you 'hear' a difference.. I just don't like the dishonesty of a lot of their marketing claims.

I guess for me (Responsible for creating a myriad of complex medical devices) it's a bit difficult, I get notified bodies crawling up my ass every time we release a new product (quite rightly!) needing not only verifiable proof that the product meets its spec, but also that it is validated to be clinically useful and relevant..
If that was applied to these products you would very very quickly weed out the the snake oil from the real quality improvements.
 
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I don't mind terribly even if it's personal belief that causes your brain to interpret things differently so you 'hear' a difference.. I just don't like the dishonesty of a lot of their marketing claims.

I guess for me (Responsible for creating a myriad of complex medical devices) it's a bit difficult, I get notified bodies crawling up my ass every time we release a new product (quite rightly!) needing not only verifiable proof that the product meets its spec, but also that it is validated to be clinically useful and relevant..
If that was applied to these products you would very very quickly weed out the the snake oil from the real quality improvements.

Indeed... music/audio should be an enjoyable hobby/pastime/passion/whatever. Whilst I don't understand why some folk believe what they do in the absence of real evidence (and usually with the overwhelming likelihood of expectation bias), if it's doing no harm and they are enjoying themselves then that's fine by me. Like you say though, when there are dishonest and pseudo scientific claims about expensive products, then that's crossing the line and deserves to be called out.

I'm not sure this is Carl Sagan's quote, or one he reused, but the phrase "it pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out" keeps coming to mind.
 
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dowie said:
I'm well aware that high end cables can vary in quality, I said that myself.

Yes but you've repeatedly ignored the fact that they can vary in construction and that matters. How the cables are assembled matters and you repeatedly ignore it, which is why i said high end cables can vary in quality and construction. . You have dodged important points like the fact that increasing the size of twinflex isnt enough to negate the inductance twinflex inherently has, at ANY size, and stubbornly and somewhat obsessively concentrated on trying to infer I said something I never did, going round in circles because you have nothing else to cling on to. I've made it really really really clear what i objected to and you are still banging on about me putting a word in the wrong place (despite me quoting that part of your original post verbatim more than once so who really gives an F?)

dowie said:
I'm really not sure where you're coming from here or why you've gotten so worked up about my straight forward statement dismissing high end cables.

And this is exactly your problem right here, dowie. I've said it multiple times - it's a blanket statement and if it doesn't hold up 100% of the time (which it doesn't) then it's wrong. How are you still not understanding what i took issue with?

I'll put this in as few words as i can:

A high end, woven / braided /plaited cable WILL outperform any twinflex of any reasonable size (lets say under 6mm for the lolz) with speakers that present difficult loads in the upper audible spectrum. 12khz-20khz. Does that high end cable actually have to be expensive? No, not at all - you can build your own for a few quid*. But that wasnt your point was it? You made a blanket statement about cables when such a statement shouldn't be made. So, final last time, you were wrong. If you are still confused now then there's no helping you. I'd stay clear of these discussions in that case because believe me this is just dipping a toe in the water.

* like this one, which I still need to terminate:
HQ0tBxnl.jpg

I mean sure i'm not selling that for a thousand pound a metre but I didn't make them for anybody else :)

Give me a properly done scientific study proving any of this snake oil BS actually has verifiable and measurable differences, beyond any doubt (and removing human bias) and I'll believe it. Until that proof exists (it doesn't, that is why it's always excuses, and my personal favourite, 'science can't prove everything'), I will remain firmly in the 'this doesn't make a sod of difference' camp.

Indeed!
 
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Soldato
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20 May 2011
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5,995
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Aberdeen, Scotland
I don't mind terribly even if it's personal belief that causes your brain to interpret things differently so you 'hear' a difference.. I just don't like the dishonesty of a lot of their marketing claims.

I guess for me (Responsible for creating a myriad of complex medical devices) it's a bit difficult, I get notified bodies crawling up my ass every time we release a new product (quite rightly!) needing not only verifiable proof that the product meets its spec, but also that it is validated to be clinically useful and relevant..
If that was applied to these products you would very very quickly weed out the the snake oil from the real quality improvements.

That's the thing; I have zero issues with people enjoying placebo, because we know that placebo can and does have actual real physical effects on the body.

The problem comes when those people act as if their placebo experiences are actually real and start dismissing science that contradicts that. Things would be a lot better if people just discussed this hobby with the understanding of placebo instead of acting like whatever they hear truly exists and therefore should apply to everyone.

It's kinda like ghosts; people who are adamant they have seen them will dismiss the total lack of scientific proof because their version of reality has to always be the correct one.
 
Caporegime
Joined
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58,899
Yes but you've repeatedly ignored the fact that they can vary in construction and that matters. How the cables are assembled matters and you repeatedly ignore it, which is why i said high end cables can vary in quality and construction.

No I haven't..

And this is exactly your problem right here, dowie. I've said it multiple times - it's a blanket statement and if it doesn't hold up 100% of the time (which it doesn't) then it's wrong. How are you still not understanding what i took issue with?

I think you're just banging on about a trivial issue tbh.. and if that weren't the case then you'd have replied with more evidence of it being a real problem.

A high end, woven / braided /plaited cable WILL outperform any twinflex of any reasonable size (lets say under 6mm for the lolz) with speakers that present difficult loads in the upper audible spectrum. 12khz-20khz. Does that high end cable actually have to be expensive? No, not at all - you can build your own for a few quid*. But that wasnt your point was it? You made a blanket statement about cables when such a statement shouldn't be made. So, final last time, you were wrong. If you are still confused now then there's no helping you. I'd stay clear of these discussions in that case because believe me this is just dipping a toe in the water.

I think you've claimed to reply for the final last time multiple times, you're getting worked up over some edge case/minor potential issue that in reality you've simply not show to be a big issue.

AFAIK resistance is the main potential issue with cables, inductance and capacitance can be potential issues but in reality, over a short run meh.. not a problem. You're focused on some claim of an issue with some 1mm twin flex, run to 8 meters and a specific speaker having a some effect in the high frequencies. Cool... I'm not buying that you can then take that claim and extrapolate from that into some assertion that a particular construction should be used for certain types of speakers in general etc.. you're going to have a trade off here (potentially increasing capacitance etc..) as already mentioned before.

You're happy to keep on quoting me over this issue where you're getting a bit obsessive over this minor issue but I think it's rather flawed and you're pointlessly muddling/complicating what isn't really much of an issue at all. I don't get why people want to try and act all superior when it comes to hi-fi or pretend that trivial stuff is actually super important when more likely it's a non-issue.

My main point here was simply that high end/expensive speaker cables are BS and all you need is some decent, thick copper cable... for clarity I'm talking about speaker cables here not just grabbing a bit of 1mm twin flex.

But your determination to focus on one potential inductance issue which I think you're overhyping is flawed IMO, there are all sorts of potential theoretical issues here and in reality in a short run of decent cable they're not noticeable - I'll quote from the article I linked to again, I think this sums up why it's rather flawed and that really any decent cable will do rather than this focus you have on a particular cable design and determination that that design is the superior one:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/pear-cable-science
audioholics said:
Because of the massive number of possible permutations in available amplifier/loudspeaker combinations, it is essentially a random phenomenon. This means that there is no single cable design that could work with every possible combination to minimize deleterious effects to sound quality through complimentary properties. It far more likely that a particular cable design will not have any effect on audio quality at all and, although a remote possibility either way, at least as likely that the cable properties are not complimentary to a particular system as it is likely that they are complimentary. This is most certainly not what high priced cable manufacturers are claiming when they try to sell their wares.

This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability.


That's odd - you've repeatedly quoted me to argue the toss over my claim that this high end cable stuff is all BS and that if you've got a decent cable then it doesn't make any difference (bar long run or thin cable). Yet you're saying "indeed" to a guy expressing the same sort of view...

Yes I'm aware you're not arguing against the high end bit but rather you want to nit pick/bang on about possible inductance issues/advocate for a particular design of cable...

Lol you guys.

Give me a properly done scientific study proving any of this snake oil BS actually has verifiable and measurable differences, beyond any doubt (and removing human bias) and I'll believe it. Until that proof exists (it doesn't, that is why it's always excuses, and my personal favourite, 'science can't prove everything'), I will remain firmly in the 'this doesn't make a sod of difference' camp.

Special circumstances exist, such as shielding needed for huge runs of cables in studios to prevent loss of power over long distances, but that's about it.

Exactly. It doesn't need to be over complicated with claims about special cable constructions being needed etc.. they can all have theoretical differences and trying to tackle one effect can increase others etc.. over a short run of cable, providing it is thick enough, there generally isn't an issue.

If there were then you'd have multiple blind tests where people were demonstrating that their special braided design for example is noticeably superior even over a regular short run from an amp to some nearby speakers etc.. than the simple thick copper speaker cables the unsophisticated n00bs thought were perfectly fine in their lounge.

I think with hi fi some wealthy people like to buy into the high end stuff and then make all the golden ears claims etc.. other hobbyists get into obsessions over trivial issues too. I remember when a bunch of enthusiasts all decided some ikea product was the perfect hi fi stand etc.. You also get home made solutions - people making their own special DACs, the above case where someone is determined that a particular cable construction is what should be used etc... it's often just more of the same sort of esoteric stuff, trying to tackle a problem that often isn't really noticeable in the first place. I'm not knocking the hobby aspect of it, each to their own... but demanding others accept the claims without demonstrating it's really a significant, noticable issue is a bit dubious.
 
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Associate
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5 Apr 2014
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2,173
Location
Pompey
Cables can make a difference, however it's a very small % I had a cardas cable with my HD800, it didn't automatically make them better but it did add something to the sound, whether it's better is down to the user. I've always been in the camp that if the stock cables are good, then spend that extra money on good source gear or a bottle of whisky.
 
Soldato
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20,158
Location
Woburn Sand Dunes
An issue is an issue whether you think it's trivial or not, Dowie. You don't want to admit even a 'trivial' (tell that to stat owners) issue will invalidate a dumb blanket statement. The rest of that nonsense you posted is all projection. Yeah I might keep saying I'm done with it and last time etc but you keep replying with more dumb and for some strange reason I still felt like I could help you understand. However, you are right (that I should stop) So I will. You have your view based on...well, I don't know what. I have mine, based on physics. Agree to disagree and move on before you bore everyone to death.
 
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Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,899
Sorry but you're the one banging on about a trivial issue, not me. You chose to quote me and the repeatedly follow up now you're throwing in stuff calling my statement dumb, pretending it's all based on nonsense etc.. and simultaneously wanting me to not reply to these accusations.

I've not denied that inductance issues can exist but rather questioned whether they're noticeable over a short run of cable, see the previously linked to article and the conclusion that "It far more likely that a particular cable design will not have any effect on audio quality at all".

I get it, you're adamant that some braided speaker cable design is the superior one etc.. and you like to make them - I've not got a problem with that, that's your hobby and you're welcome to it. But to demand that everyone else accept your view that that type of cable design is superior and/or that I can't say that this is just trivial worries over nothing and any design can have trade offs is ridiculous.

"This leads back to the Audioholics stance that any properly designed cable is as good as any other. The basis of the statement is supported in probability."

I'm happy to leave it there but if you're going to follow up yet again to bang on about how I can't hold the position I put forth because your favorite type of cables totally superior + "physics" etc.. and my argument is just dumb nonsense then I find that objectionable. I think you're getting way too worked up about that particular cable design and it's a bit silly really, if this was such a big deal then you'd have a bunch of blind tests showing that that type of cable is obviously noticeably superior etc...
 
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