AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

[BigBANGtheory]

So here’s the challenge that AMD needs to get its head around.... a high-end part that obviously costs more because it is more expensive to produce BUT doesn’t try to aim for a ridiculous margin and made with enough volume the channels can’t gorge because of scarcity.

Too much to ask? Or is it....

 

[gpuerrilla]

Yes. As once it is confirmed a decent product they will use team green to see what theirs is selling for and drop the bollock playing that game.

 

[LePhuronn]

I doubt anyone is buying it when called 680 as a direct Polaris replacement at £400. Smart move tbh.

True, but if the full Navi lineup was available from the get go then the 680 wouldn't have been £400. That would have been the domain of the 56 and 64 CU models.

 

[Jacky60]

You only witness this in a market were there was little competition. That's the difference. That's not the case come end of 2020/2021. If AMD blows Intel out the water with these Ryzen 4000 cpus with lower latency and higher clocks I might even switch and that's saying something . There is more value "going all AMD" then you realize.

And here we thought it would take the RTG to do the heavy marketing lift when Ryzen is doing it all by themselves. Radeon will simply ride on the Ryzen wave.

Even though its not talked about that much here even Nvidia got onboard. All Aboard!!!!
Chooo-Chooo
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/05/nvidia-ditches-intel-cozies-up-to-amd-with-its-new-dgx-a100/

I don't agree I have three gamer friends and two of them would never consider an AMD GPU. Even if you show them benchmarks/better performance and better price performance charts they're simply too daft to consider AMD. That's the real problem with not being competitive and especially being way off the performance crown for so long. It will take years for AMD to properly re-establish themselves in the GPU market simply because they lost a huge amount of favourable mindshare 4-5 years ago after the Fury X launch then Vega. Over promising in advance of those launches only made the problem worse.

 

[Calin Banc]

That's a big part of the problem for AMD. They could offer the exact same product at 30% less cost and the masses would still buy Nvidia. Mindshare is a powerful thing.

They would consider if the product is faster and doesn't have some other type of weakness: remember r290x at about half the price of a Titan, same performance, but terrible cooler! That's AMD thing, always managing to do something wrong. Latest is with the initial launch price of 5700xt (not that the 5700xt price is something "wow" now).

 

[gpuerrilla]

I don't agree I have three gamer friends and two of them would never consider an AMD GPU. Even if you show them benchmarks/better performance and better price performance charts they're simply too daft to consider AMD. That's the real problem

This is the status quo and you only have to view these forums to see its not just the masses that think this way. Brand loyalty is a thing, just because some tarnish stuck years ago generally means the sheeple retort it as a tool of justification.

You can see it in parents/friends/family with cars, if someone has a bad experience in a model its stigmatised forever more with that fable. There is no point in thinking that this demographic will be swayed - you just have to let them have a bad experience with the brand they are championing and it will reset.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Ed- double post.

 

[TNA]

This is the status quo and you only have to view these forums to see its not just the masses that think this way. Brand loyalty is a thing, just because some tarnish stuck years ago generally means the sheeple retort it as a tool of justification.

You can see it in parents/friends/family with cars, if someone has a bad experience in a model its stigmatised forever more with that fable. There is no point in thinking that this demographic will be swayed - you just have to let them have a bad experience with the brand they are championing and it will reset.

Yeah true. No matter what AMD does, some people will only always buy AMD

 

[Participant]

I'm now getting really impatient for the next raft of good consumer tech.

- Zen 3
- RDNA2 / Ampere
- Cyberpunk / Flight Simulator

It feels like a loooong wait to all of that, but I also don't want to wish the summer away, so intend to get outside as much as I can and forget about it!

 

[gpuerrilla]

Yeah true. No matter what AMD does, some people will only always buy AMD

You inference is inaccurate. I went through plenty of intel and nvidia products and still will, they just tend to get filtered when you apply the affordable income price + wife constraints!

 

[TNA]

You inference is inaccurate. I went through plenty of intel and nvidia products and still will, they just tend to get filtered when you apply the affordable income price + wife constraints!

Was actually thinking of shankly when typing that

 

[TNA]

I'm now getting really impatient for the next raft of good consumer tech.

- Zen 3
- RDNA2 / Ampere
- Cyberpunk / Flight Simulator

It feels like a loooong wait to all of that, but I also don't want to wish the summer away, so intend to get outside as much as I can and forget about it!

 

[humbug]

They would consider if the product is faster and doesn't have some other type of weakness: remember r290x at about half the price of a Titan, same performance, but terrible cooler! That's AMD thing, always managing to do something wrong. Latest is with the initial launch price of 5700xt (not that the 5700xt price is something "wow" now).

Yeah.... even when AIB's made them good Nvidia still sold more.

 

[shankly1985]

Was actually thinking of shankly when typing that

Ay I bought Intel CPU over Ryzen

Nvidia need to get into my good books before I ever think about buying them XD

Am all for AMD vision and where they going with Ryzen and GPU space my next Gen system will most definitely be a full AMD rig

 

[melmac]

Proof of what? I never said anything about Big Navi on RDNA 1.

But you've answered your own question: the 5700 XT was supposed to be RX 680 originally. We all saw the graphic snafu (presumably meaning the 5700 was going to be RX 670). That replaces the Polaris 500 series. It's a logical extension then that a 40 CU RX 680 would have bigger cards above it, namely with 56 and 64 CUs (to replace Vega). But of course they never materialised, did they. Why? It's a long-standing belief (and unfortunately never confirmed) that Navi had some issues which caused it to be delayed, and there was talk about a respin required back in September 2018. Perhaps those problems were bigger than anticipated, so the decision was made to launch the new 5700 moniker and clock the tattas off Navi 10 and face off against Nvidia's mid-range RTX until some kind of fix was in place.

It's been a year, but it looks like that fix is finally here. So all the existing 5000 series Navi cards get fresh silicon and pushed into the product segment they were originally intended. It's not a case of 5700 XT "pushed" to the lower end, it's where the card was always supposed to be.

By virtue of this taking a year to resolve, there's now little point in producing RDNA 1 GPUs with 56, 64 and even 80 CUs (as was likely the original plan) because RDNA 2 is right around the corner.

Just imagine though what could have been. 40 CU card as AMD's lower-tier product beating the mid-range RTX 2070? 80 CUs would have obliterated the 2080 Ti.

That's a lot of if's and maybes. It was the image on E3 that started all this. Where it had the 5700XT with RX 690 on the bottom. It was RX 690 not 680 as you stated above. It's not a logical step to think there would be higher cards above this because of the name on GPU render in a trade show. If you assumed that when Polaris was released there would be high end variants then you would have been wrong.

Yes, there was a respin in September 2018, but, respins happen after a tapeout. These respins are used to correct minor faults. A product that goes as far as tapeout would cost a fortune to cancel.

Wouldn't it be more logical to assume, that there was never a high end Navi 1 cheap planned at all. And that 2nd generation Navi 2x was the high end plan all along. The consoles bear that argument out.

Also we know that the Navi 10 was rumoured to be a Polaris replacement. But, maybe it was never just a Polaris replacement. Maybe it was also filling a hole where the Vega cards used to be. The 5600 parts covering the $200-$300 range and the 5700 parts covering the $300-$450 range. And the reason they clocked the Tatas off the 5700xt is because that's the only way they could beat the 2070.

TLDR: There was never a GPU coming out on RDNA 1 that was going to make the 1080ti or the 5700XT low end.

 

[gpuerrilla]

Was actually thinking of shankly when typing that

Ahh in that case then I have no defence!

 

[melmac]

Navi 1 IPC is the same if not a few % higher than Turing, a few pages back a 2070 at 1.5Ghz which has the same 256Bit GDDR6 @ 1750Mhz and the same 2304 Shaders was about 96% the performance of a 5700.

The 5700XT reference runs at about 1850Mhz, the 2070 about 2000Mhz, AIB 5700XT mine about 1950Mhz.... some as high as 2050Mhz, its a 40 CU (2560 Shader) part with 256Bit GDDR6.

The 505mm^2 Navi 2 is thought to be an 80 CU part with 512Bit GDDR6 with a reference core speed of about 2050Mhz with AIB ones as high as 2200Mhz, its 2X the 5700XT +5% core speed and between +5 - 10% higher IPC.

According to the TPU slide above a 2080TI is 142% of a reference 5700XT, doubling the CU and memory bandwidth does not scale 1:1, conservatively we can safely say 0.75:1, so all things being equal big Navi would be 175% of the 5700XT, add +5% IPC and + 5% clocks making it 185% of the 5700XT, about 143% of the 2080TI.

That doesn't seem like a huge leap... but i would like to see Nvidia go 180% or more of the 2080TI to make it a meaningful difference from Big Navi, the 2080TI is 800mm^2 on 12nm, 12nm is 0.7 the density of 7nm, you gain 40% die area going to 7nm, a 2080TI would still be 570mm^2 on 7nm, all things being equal to gain that 80% to put them 30% ahead of Big Navi Nvidia would have to go 1150mm^2 on 7nm.

Good luck with that.

You want AMD to produce a GPU that's 80% faster than the 2080Ti? You really think that's possible?

Also, your die size calculations are way off. The 2080Ti is 754mm2 not 800m2 for start. The 2070Super is 545mm2. Going from a 12nm to a 7nm process means a roughly a 40% reduction in the amount of space needed for each transistor. If you work it out, that means the 2080Ti would be actually only 454mm2 on 7nm. The 2070 Super would be 327mm2

But lets go a little further. A guy called Fritzchens Fritz was able to work out the space used by RTX on the die. It goes something like this.

2080Ti - 754mm2 with RTX, 684 without.
2070 Super - 545mm2 with RTX, 498 without.

That would mean the 2080Ti on 7nm without RTX cores would be only 410mm2.
The 2070 Super would be 299mm2.

So, in raster performance, we have a GPU from AMD on 251mm2 not quite as fast as a 299mm2 GPU from Nvidia.

Since they both use roughly the same amount of power currently. If both were on the same 7nm process, then Nvidia GPU would be using less power. .

Now factor in that the RDNA2 GPU in the Xbox series X is around 300mm2 and supposedly a little faster than the 2080. You can see that it's going to need a big jump in performance for AMD to be really competitive at the high end.

I would like to see AMD doing well with RDNA2 but I am not going to get hyped up just yet.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

I don't agree I have three gamer friends and two of them would never consider an AMD GPU. Even if you show them benchmarks/better performance and better price performance charts they're simply too daft to consider AMD. That's the real problem with not being competitive and especially being way off the performance crown for so long. It will take years for AMD to properly re-establish themselves in the GPU market simply because they lost a huge amount of favourable mindshare 4-5 years ago after the Fury X launch then Vega. Over promising in advance of those launches only made the problem worse.

I too don't agree with this. And believe you miss understand me. I'm not saying AMD is converting the strongest loyalist.

You've describing loyalists & that is not what the Gaming Market is comprised of as a whole.

GPP, wood screw gate, 970 scandal, higher prices, etc. have caused the same kind of negative reactions and view points with nvidia, for example.

There is a distinct difference between bias and Optics.

 

[LoadsaMoney]

You want AMD to produce a GPU that's 80% faster than the 2080Ti? You really think that's possible?

Well, they must be getting about that over their 5700XT, so why not

 

[EastCoastHandle]

What's I find odd are rumors that those apus on console are getting revisions. Hmm, I wonder what that means? Halo parts?