E-Scooter discussion after fatal collision

Soldato
Joined
9 Mar 2012
Posts
10,072
Location
West Sussex, England
The problem as I see it, these scooters aren't licensed and have no plates so when some take no notice of road traffic regulations how will they be identified? It's all very well the rider having a license but without any plates they won't be subject to the rules being applied equally as in CCTV capturing them running red lights etc. I can see the hiring aspect as being something to assist that only models meeting the 15mph limit would be legal for use and hopefully this also includes front and rear lights being mandatory / factory fitted. I think it also raises the issue of enforcement, especially when used on pavements as some cyclists seem to see all pavements as cycle lanes and is already a poor mix with pedestrians.
 
Soldato
Joined
24 Oct 2002
Posts
14,162
Location
Bucks and Edinburgh
Again not always. Kits are often sold which allow you to do this to an existing bicycle. So it's irrelevant whether it's an illegal modification or not, people illegally modify their cars and motorbikes every day!

Of course its relevant whether a kit is illegal or not, its the whole point of the post I was replying to. The post if you want to go back and read it again was that ebikes are assisted so shouldnt be classified as motorised transport like an e-scooter and therefore should not require a licence, if you dont pedal you dont go anywhere unlike the e-scooter. Cars require a licence to begin with so illegal modification is irrelevant to the point of requiring a licence.
 
Caporegime
Joined
30 Jul 2013
Posts
28,822
Indeed, and modification will render your insurance void unless you tell them, and can make the car illegal.

We're talking about how the law applies to stock scooters and e-bikes, not modified ones.
 
Soldato
Joined
22 Oct 2002
Posts
8,232
Location
Near Cheltenham
Not sure if I agree with the mandatory helmets. For whatever my reasons I chose to not wear a helmet (YMMV) but I can ride faster than 20mph on my bicycle and it's not mandatory there so why should it be mandatory for a eBike, Scooter or EUC.

It's not mandatory on a bike (yet) but If you advocate having a 20MPH limit unassisted, then more people are going to be doing this and at 20MPH there is a significant risk of serious injury.. even 15MPH smacking your head against something solid is going to be a very very bad day..

I guess, I need to try an escooter , but unless the roads are smooth (like the SanF utubes), at 15mph I'm surprised they feel stable, without the gyroscopic effect you get on a much larger bicycle wheel. 27" vs 10"?
On (uk) roads , for a motorist(who should go to specsavers) emerging at side junctions , an approaching escooter will not be so distinctive from the posture of a pedestrian,
speed has to be limited to give motorists some basis to evaluate closing speed;
escooter braking system/tyres, also need to match the max speed allowed. (I wonder what the rules are for a moped)

I can only vouch anecdotally for the stability, but I have not come accross another owner or user that feels it's anything but stable enough.. and that's on UK roads.

For the other points it's just like a bike really, visibility wise you are stood bolt upright, arguably it's probably a large cross sectional area presented to the car driver, so I'd say it's no worse than a bike.
The brakes are also good enough (disc brakes) just like a bike, I have no issues stopping on mine at all from any speed, just like my bike.. the bonus is, on many eScooters you get a brake light and front light built in.. I wish bikes had this.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
29 Mar 2003
Posts
56,791
Location
Stoke on Trent
It's not mandatory on a bike (yet) but If you advocate having a 20MPH limit unassisted, then more people are going to be doing this and at 20MPH there is a significant risk of serious injury.. even 15MPH smacking your head against something solid is going to be a very very bad day..

I've woke up twice in A&E and that's with a helmet on, both times I would have been dead or very seriously brain damaged.
My mate always reminds me this is just an anecdote and he's never needed one.
I've never needed a seat belt in 62 years but I always put one on.
 
Soldato
Joined
18 Feb 2006
Posts
9,570
20 would make sense to me. Allows you to pass most cyclists really. The issue does come though when you get that Muppet who rides on the pavement...

I think this misses the point that a ebike is meant to just be a easier to use bike, not a faster one. If you want to go faster then a average pedal bike then get a petrol scooter. I say this as someone who can comfortably average 20mph on my bike without the addition of a motor.
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Dec 2011
Posts
32,910
Location
Northern England
I think this misses the point that a ebike is meant to just be a easier to use bike, not a faster one. If you want to go faster then a average pedal bike then get a petrol scooter. I say this as someone who can comfortably average 20mph on my bike without the addition of a motor.

No. It allows you that extra speed when required to overtake slower cyclists instead of getting stuck behind them perpetually.
 
Soldato
Joined
22 Nov 2006
Posts
23,300
The problem as I see it, these scooters aren't licensed and have no plates so when some take no notice of road traffic regulations how will they be identified? It's all very well the rider having a license but without any plates they won't be subject to the rules being applied equally as in CCTV capturing them running red lights etc. I can see the hiring aspect as being something to assist that only models meeting the 15mph limit would be legal for use and hopefully this also includes front and rear lights being mandatory / factory fitted. I think it also raises the issue of enforcement, especially when used on pavements as some cyclists seem to see all pavements as cycle lanes and is already a poor mix with pedestrians.

After a few accidents and people getting squashed by buses after jumping lights they will change the law. Just give it a few years.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
Posts
21,778
Scooter Crash Test
although users probably wouldn't behave like dummies, you don't have a crumple zone like on a bicycle - the front wheel.
it's surprising how much the car is shaken ... maybe that's 1/2mv^2
 
Associate
Joined
1 Jul 2009
Posts
728
Location
Shropshire/Paris
The problem as I see it, these scooters aren't licensed and have no plates so when some take no notice of road traffic regulations how will they be identified? It's all very well the rider having a license but without any plates they won't be subject to the rules being applied equally as in CCTV capturing them running red lights etc. I can see the hiring aspect as being something to assist that only models meeting the 15mph limit would be legal for use and hopefully this also includes front and rear lights being mandatory / factory fitted. I think it also raises the issue of enforcement, especially when used on pavements as some cyclists seem to see all pavements as cycle lanes and is already a poor mix with pedestrians.
The usual let’s turn bikes and scooters into cars.. Bikes have been around for hundreds of years and you still don’t need any of that haha. Cars are finished in cities. They are gradually being blocked out. Bikes and e-scooters will have all the roads to themselves..
 
Associate
Joined
7 Mar 2011
Posts
1,367
Location
Edinburgh
The usual let’s turn bikes and scooters into cars.. Bikes have been around for hundreds of years and you still don’t need any of that haha. Cars are finished in cities. They are gradually being blocked out. Bikes and e-scooters will have all the roads to themselves..

To themselves..to share with buses, trams, delivery trucks and taxis. What could possibly go wrong? Here's the truth. No one wants them on the pavement, they're too fast. No one wants them on the road, they're too slow.
 
Soldato
Joined
2 Aug 2012
Posts
7,809
Scooter Crash Test
although users probably wouldn't behave like dummies, you don't have a crumple zone like on a bicycle - the front wheel.
it's surprising how much the car is shaken ... maybe that's 1/2mv^2

The other thing to consider is that people see what they expect to see.

When you see somebody standing up, most people will "See" a pedestrian traveling at 2-4MPH not somebody on a scooter traveling at 15.

I anticipate many accidents.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
Posts
21,778
yes - I agree, thery'll look like pedestrians, albeit, waving at you :
an approaching escooter will not be so distinctive from the posture of a pedestrian,

Paris's rules https://www.2roueselectriques.fr/loi-trottinettes-electriques/
Summary of the law on electric scooters
  • Electric scooters are prohibited on sidewalks. Unless the mayor authorizes it. Unless you turn off the engine.
  • In built-up areas you must travel on cycle paths or, failing that, on roads with a maximum authorized speed of 50 km / h.
  • Outside built-up areas, only on cycle paths or greenways (except derogation)
  • Scooters are prohibited for children under 12 years of age.
  • Civil insurance is compulsory . Consult our guide to find good insurance for electric scooters .
  • Fines, a fine of 135 euros for traffic on sidewalks, 35 euros for non-compliance with traffic laws and above all a fine of 1500 euros for exceeding the authorized speed.
  • Prohibition to ride with an electric scooter that exceeds 25 km / h . Please note, it is not a question of using a speed mode which does not exceed this limit, but indeed of carrying out a software clamping of your electric scooter.
  • The use of headphones is prohibited.
  • Front and rear lights are mandatory.
  • Wearing a retro-reflective vest at night or when visibility is poor.
  • An audible warning is compulsory (horn)
How should my scooter be from July 1, 2020?
Here are the main lines of the ministerial decree fixing the rules applicable on July 1 of what is "effective braking":

The deceleration must be at least 1.7m / s2
Reflector:

Regarding passive lighting (or retro-reflectors), which are also mandatory in July, you will need to position them as follows:
- A red retro reflector (R313-18): It must be fixed at a height allowing it to be seen.
- An orange reflector on the side (R313-19)
- A white reflector at the front (R313-20)
If you do not respect this safety device, you risk a 2nd class fine (35 €)
 
Caporegime
Joined
12 Mar 2004
Posts
29,913
Location
England
I know, I am not attempting to justify it, I AM justifying MY opinion. I don't agree with the current state of the system. I believe that anything with a motor, being used on the road, should be treated as a motor vehicle. Ride them off road as much as you like where they are allowed, but on the roads I fully believe all the same rules should apply to motor vehicles. Based on the things I have already explained in my previous posts.

You are free to disagree with me btw, I am not trying to have an argument. I stated my opinion, and why i believe it. That's how internet discussion works.

Discussion "works" by challenging opinions, otherwise what is the point in discussing anything?

Why make an arbitrary distinction of motor when you can ride a nearly 1 ton animal at 40mph down the street? It doesn't make sense to create an arbitrary distinction for a class of vehicle that travels at the same speed, has the same handling characteristics and the same momentum as an identical human powered vehicle.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
Posts
21,778
OK - in the general case, utilization of a motor , thereby exceeding typical human power, does usually infer an ability for the means of transport to damage(momentum) both the driver and others to a greater degree (with costs to society), so, worthy of differential legislation,
also if you have skin/adrenelaine, like the poor horse, in the game, you probably make more responsible decisions, too ?
 
Soldato
Joined
25 Oct 2004
Posts
8,854
Location
Sunny Torbaydos
As someone who commutes by bicycle daily using a variety of bikes (road/gravel/emtb) I was a bit comfused by the new rules put in place for escooters.

They should have just kept them similar to ebikes 15.5mph top speed, 250w motor max. With the only exception being mandatory helmets. Speed restrictions should be enforced across the board, I've seen e-scooters riding on the pavement, keeping up with traffic on a 30mph road. While it's entirely possible to keep up or even out pace an e-scooter on a high end road bike, that power is coming entirely from you, and not a button or throttle control.

If I'm going for a short sprint I make sure I have plenty of space to do it. Something I wouldn't really think about when all I have to do is a push a button.
 
Caporegime
Joined
12 Mar 2004
Posts
29,913
Location
England
OK - in the general case, utilization of a motor , thereby exceeding typical human power, does usually infer an ability for the means of transport to damage(momentum) both the driver and others to a greater degree (with costs to society), so, worthy of differential legislation,
also if you have skin/adrenelaine, like the poor horse, in the game, you probably make more responsible decisions, too ?

This "general case" does not apply to ebikes, they are bikes with a 250W motor and a max speed limit of 15.5mph so considerably less than the output power or momentum of a bike powered by a human.

Horses behave unpredictably in the best of situations, many times I have seen horses take off after being spooked, but even at a sensible trotting pace that I would ride at the momentum is an order of magnitude higher than someone doing 15mph on an ebike.
 
Back
Top Bottom