Census 2021

Don
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Because you'd end up with duplicated data, out dated data, and missing data.

The whole idea of a census is that it gives an accurate snapshot of the population at a specific time so you shouldn't be getting Mr Smith counted twice because two different systems have him down slightly differently, or you end up having to try and work out which data from which system is actually correct at the specific time which is a mammoth task.

Also a lot of the other systems have highly sensitive information on them, so you ideally never link them together more than you absolutely need to for data protection reasons...

To give an idea, my brother in law found he wasn't registered at his GP, apparently he'd not been for long enough they'd removed him, whilst there are accounts of people who've died still being on a GP's register years later because the GP hadn't been informed.
HRMC is usually working at least a month, sometimes up to a year out of date, the hospital records don't necessarily show where you are living at the moment or at all if you've not needed a hospital visit for a number of years so the hospital and your GP might have different records neither of which may be correct for where you actually are.

It's also worth remembering that many government systems don't ask where you are living, just where you can be contacted because people like students might be living at one end of the country but still going "home" to the parents over the holidays.

The Census gets all sorts of information together in a fairly cheap way, probably far cheaper than linking the other systems, let alone linking them securely and then working out what data is accurate when you've got conflicting information, and gets information you don't necessarily get on the other systems - I'm not sure which government system would actually know everyone's specific job, HMRC might know your income but that doesn't help with things like working out if certain jobs are increasing, decreasing, disappeared or are new (and if need be work out if support is needed to keep skills alive).

Exactly, just because there's data "all over the place" doesn't mean that this data is tied together - because ultimately it's pretty much impossible to do. You don't own your data, you don't have absolute rights over the data, the data is linked to you but ultimately it's also potentially linked to others, or owned by other people - you have a FB account - the data on there you fill in, is stored in their identity repository; Facebook likely owns that data, and also has links to that data. There's a lot of people, clever people trying to figure out the data question currently - look into OIDC, OpenBanking, FAPI to gain an understanding of it.

There is no central Identity repository. There's no one place which stores all your data and chances are, there won't ever be. Lots of reasons why (such as anonymity online); But based on the Zero sum structure which laws are based on - states you can't both own a piece of land, or a piece of property, but with data that's different and the issue is building rights around that; Think of data as copyright information. Artists have an economic right to that copyright - music can be copied many times and the value of the music doesn't diminish. Data can be copied, shared and it's value also doesn't diminish. Data is maintained at the authoritive source - meaning if you have a gmail account, or FB account, or your records held by the government, updates are made directly at that point.

For there to be on central database of information you'd have to lose anonymity when signing up for services - if you sign up to gmail, you'd have to provide a central ID which allows the data to be linked back to you. If you sign up to Amazon, the same. Also, there's existing data and how to deal with that, you probably already have a gmail account - would you then be expected to prove who you are, or lose access to this? It's a mine field.

Linking together the information (government, GP, NHS etc) is all well and good - but there's questions which come from linking that data - who controls and owns the data? Who picks through the data to ensure it's all the same across multiple sources? How can you prove who you are, based on that data? You can't, as the model for all of this data was turned upside down when the internet became popular. But there was never one set of data held for you - the Government has data, your employer has data, your wife or children has data on you and a lot of this might differ - you expose data based on the audience which you want to see it; There's now 1000's of identity providers out there who hold a copy of your data (or a subset of it) and it'll be impossible for all identity providers to come together to link it all together and keep one record of it - as you'd have to have a single corporation which essentially has taken over the world.

Any ways, bit of a rant and probably a conversation for a thread by itself.
 
Soldato
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You'll find a lot of folk on the continent identify with European ahead of their national identity. Crossing some man made borders which are nothing more than drawings on a map - why should that be my identity?

your posts continue their descent into being pretty much indistinguishable from satire...

You do know that the idea of 'Europe' is at least as much based on 'a drawing on a map' as the idea of the United Kingdom?

Both entities, like many others, do use some natural geographical features for boundaries but there boundaries of 'Europe' could easily have been placed elsewhere if human history had been different.

Still it's handy when people identify their nationality as 'European'. As its a pretty good shortcut to establishing whether they are likely serious people or mindless cultists.
 
Soldato
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your posts continue their descent into being pretty much indistinguishable from satire...

You do know that the idea of 'Europe' is at least as much based on 'a drawing on a map' as the idea of the United Kingdom?

Both entities, like many others, do use some natural geographical features for boundaries but there boundaries of 'Europe' could easily have been placed elsewhere if human history had been different.

Still it's handy when people identify their nationality as 'European'. As its a pretty good shortcut to establishing whether they are likely serious people or mindless cultists.
I've never found myself so offended as to simply reject the notation that other people have thoughts outside of constructs put forward by other man. Why does it bother you so much?

Continental Europe, or sub-continent Europe of Eurasia if you want to get really pedantic, has long predated any nation as defined by modern constructs. If you want to get more precise you could argue they should identify as Eurasian by the definition I have put forward, however there are enough social and geological boundaries as to why it become two sub continents!

Would you also argue the toss with a Croat identifying as Yugoslavian?

It's a shame the internet affords such bandwidth to people who only want to wage war against freedom of thought, especially in such trivial matters as a free text option to declare what you most identify as.
 
Soldato
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I've never found myself so offended as to simply reject the notation that other people have thoughts outside of constructs put forward by other man. Why does it bother you so much?

Bother me? Not much it's rather more laughing at the delusional belief that some have that they appear to think that they are more virtuos or smarter than others as they don't identify with 'lines drawn on maps' like those who identify as English and British do. Because they identify as 'European'.

Which is risible on two counts:

1) because as above 'Europe' is also a somewhat arbitary man made construct

And

2) because they are not fooling anyone with the 'European' line.

They aren't signalling their commonality with the occupants of western Kazakhstan and Northern Georgia and Azerbaijan now are they?

Rather it's obvious they are having another moan about the UK now having left the EU.

An entity which unlike 'Europe' has existed for very little time relative to the nation states that are or have been members of it.
 
Soldato
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Bother me? Not much it's rather more laughing at the delusional belief that some have that they are more virtuos or smarter than others as they don't identify with 'lines drawn on maps' like those who identify as English and British do. Because they identify as 'European'.

Which is risible on two counts:

1) because as above 'Europe' is also a somewhat arbitary man made construct

And

2) because they are not fooling anyone with the 'European' line.

They aren't signalling their commonality with the occupants of western Kazakhstan and Northern Georgia and Azerbaijan now are they?

Rather it's obvious they are having another moan about the UK now having left the EU.

An entity which unlike 'Europe' has existed for very little time relative to the nation states that are or have been members of it.
I never said or implied any of things you are making out. I said that it is not uncommon for those living in Continental Europe to identify as European before their nation state given they cross 'meaningful' borders at a rate of knots and can pretty much, freely live and work in any of them. Who they pay tax to isn't high up on that list, but the land beneath them that they tread is. Remember the census is asking what you identify as, not what your postcode is.

Regarding your point '1)' I'd argue something constructed in a board room is a lot less meaningful than something drawn up over centuries through battle, dynasty's, kingdoms, empires etc. where the seeds of infrastructure to connect and integrate were sown.

I wouldn't doubt that a lot of UK residents share the same thought process, given a lot of the citizens of the UK have come from Continental Europe.

I see your main problem is you are triggered by it being some kind of virtue signaling. I guess this is your prerogative to get offended by such things as you seemingly are hell bent on trodding the path of the 'gammons'.
 
Soldato
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I never said or implied any of things you are making out. I said that it is not uncommon for those living in Continental Europe to identify as European before their nation state given they cross 'meaningful' borders at a rate of knots and can pretty much, freely live and work in any of them. Who they pay tax to isn't high up on that list, but the land beneath them that they tread is. Remember the census is asking what you identify as, not what your postcode is.

Regarding your point '1)' I'd argue something constructed in a board room is a lot less meaningful than something drawn up over centuries through battle, dynasty's, kingdoms, empires etc. where the seeds of infrastructure to connect and integrate were sown.

I wouldn't doubt that a lot of UK residents share the same thought process, given a lot of the citizens of the UK have come from Continental Europe.

I see your main problem is you are triggered by it being some kind of virtue signaling. I guess this is your prerogative to get offended by such things as you seemingly are hell bent on trodding the path of the 'gammons'.
I don't doubt that we share similar thought processes in the UK with most of continental Europe, we share many bloodlines over centuries, half our nobility is of french descent and our royalty German. ;)
We have fought with or against, *******, married into, allied ourselves to, most of the European nations and we are truly European to our bones. We just do not need to have a political union with them and wish to keep a minimum distance of 22 miles from the shore. Wishing them all the very best, I ticked British in the appropriate box.:p
 
Soldato
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I don't doubt that we share similar thought processes in the UK with most of continental Europe, we share many bloodlines over centuries, half our nobility is of french descent and our royalty German. ;)
We have fought with or against, *******, married into, allied ourselves to, most of the European nations and we are truly European to our bones. We just do not need to have a political union with them and wish to keep a minimum distance of 22 miles from the shore. Wishing them all the very best, I ticked British in the appropriate box.:p
Good post. However a lot of them live here and have done for a while, so also would have received the census!
 
Soldato
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Good post. However a lot of them live here and have done for a while, so also would have received the census!
And it is all good. The census is just a snapshot of life in the UK on a decennial basis since 1841. I am sure that many influxes of French Hugenots, Russian Jews, Irish etc., have been similarly recorded over this time and a variety of European nationalities living and working here would not be unusual. Great Britain has always been a melting pot of nations.
 
Soldato
Joined
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22,157
And it is all good. The census is just a snapshot of life in the UK on a decennial basis since 1841. I am sure that many influxes of French Hugenots, Russian Jews, Irish etc., have been similarly recorded over this time and a variety of European nationalities living and working here would not be unusual. Great Britain has always been a melting pot of nations.
I mentioned it on another thread but if you have a few minutes to spare, give Jeff Innocent a lookup on YouTube. For me, he is a stand up who epitomises the Great British sentiment very well.
 
Caporegime
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And it is all good. The census is just a snapshot of life in the UK on a decennial basis since 1841. I am sure that many influxes of French Hugenots, Russian Jews, Irish etc., have been similarly recorded over this time and a variety of European nationalities living and working here would not be unusual. Great Britain has always been a melting pot of nations.

In 1991 the ethnicity breakdown included over 94% white British.

From the 2021 census what we do predict? 80%?
 
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