Do I need to replace this wall that is on the outside of my flat? Panic

James Peach · 19 Jul 2021 at 14:19

Sorry; it wouldn't let me embed it but you can watch the video I made right here

would really appreciate any advice

Abyss · 19 Jul 2021 at 17:12

Difficult to get any context on it's location but I'd continue to remove any badly rotted timber, treat what's left with a wet rot wood hardner then replace with new timber / render etc.

Jokester · 19 Jul 2021 at 17:26

For me this is part of the building and should be covered by the common building insurance policy rather than you individually.

James Peach · 19 Jul 2021 at 18:07

Good shout. But our leaseholder is rubbish and we're in the process of trying to get it back from them.

How do I see how far it goes? Do I need to pull off more plaster?

pp111 · 19 Jul 2021 at 20:00

I can't exactly tell what I am looking at here, but at least part of that wall is just timber coated with mesh and a cement based render to make it weatherproof. Alas the window frame has leaked, allowed water in and it's rotting the woodwork. The very minimum you need to do is replace that window and make everything water tight. But ideally you do need to strip it back to find and replace all rotting wood. You could get a builder in to take a look or simply pull it apart until you discover the scale of the problem and then fix it yourself. Just get some heavy duty plastic sheet to keep the rain off it while you are messing about. I have certainly known lazy builders to just bury problems like that ... I mean it really depends whether you want to fix it now or later. But you do need to stop the water getting in to stop it getting worse.

ik9000 · 19 Jul 2021 at 22:01

James whereabouts are you based? Can you do a couple of wide still shots of the building to give some context?

The vertical gap doesn't look unusual assuming it's a timber framed building.

You appear to be getting rot at the cill:jamb junction which isn't unusual if it's been poorly detailed, and the answer may be as simple as getting a new cill and good flashing details installed. Depending on the extent of rot, it may need some local patch repairing and scarfing to the worst bits, but drying it out once the continuing ingress has been prevented can be enough to stop it spreading.

How old is the building? I'm also wondering if someone has done a recent render repair? The EML (metal lath) you see is used to give a key to modern renders, but older buildings would not have had EML and would have a lime-based render. If someone has stuck in EML and cement render onto an old lime building it can cause no-end of problems with reduced breathability and actually trap moisture behind the render. It's bad enough on brick buildings but with timber frames... not ideal. Of course if it's a newer building it may never have had lime to begin with. Context will help.

Molep · 20 Jul 2021 at 08:34

I'd just let it dry out a bit then

1- Treat wood with some wet rot wood hardener.
2- Any wood from the window that's now missing - fill out with 2-part wood filler and sand back to shape.
3- Get some quick dry cement and make good around the window area.
4 - When all dried prime window
5 - seal area where window frame meets the wall with external sealant.
6 - Paint window frame.
7 - leave wall to really dry out month or two before priming and painting in case of any salts wanting to get out.

BUDFORCE · 20 Jul 2021 at 08:57

To all those suggesting a fix, it is a really bad idea to touch it.

As a leaseholder of a flat you pay towards insurance and the upkeep of the building and communal areas. If you go start messing with things, firstly you have no right to do it, you wouldn't go start trying to fix your neighbors house?

Secondly they could get funny about it, even blame you for the damage caused if you try to correct it.

Jokester said:
For me this is part of the building and should be covered by the common building insurance policy rather than you individually.

This is the only good suggestion, take it up with the freeholder, you are paying them to sort this out.

Dyson · 20 Jul 2021 at 09:32

BUDFORCE said:
This is the only good suggestion, take it up with the freeholder, you are paying them to sort this out.

I think he is the freeholder

ik9000 · 20 Jul 2021 at 10:17

There's a reasonable propsect the damage now is the result of someone not trying to solve a problem previously and covering it up. That or just some possibly well-intentioned but ultimately botched repair work previously. It's always better to deal with a problem then cover it up and hope it goes away. It won't.

James Peach · 20 Jul 2021 at 12:32

ik9000 said:
James whereabouts are you based? Can you do a couple of wide still shots of the building to give some context?

The vertical gap doesn't look unusual assuming it's a timber framed building.

You appear to be getting rot at the cill:jamb junction which isn't unusual if it's been poorly detailed, and the answer may be as simple as getting a new cill and good flashing details installed. Depending on the extent of rot, it may need some local patch repairing and scarfing to the worst bits, but drying it out once the continuing ingress has been prevented can be enough to stop it spreading.

How old is the building? I'm also wondering if someone has done a recent render repair? The EML (metal lath) you see is used to give a key to modern renders, but older buildings would not have had EML and would have a lime-based render. If someone has stuck in EML and cement render onto an old lime building it can cause no-end of problems with reduced breathability and actually trap moisture behind the render. It's bad enough on brick buildings but with timber frames... not ideal. Of course if it's a newer building it may never have had lime to begin with. Context will help.

I'm in London. Can def do some wide shots; hold tight my man.

James Peach · 20 Jul 2021 at 12:33

Dyson said:
I think he is the freeholder

Not the freeholder though hopefully will be soon.

James Peach · 20 Jul 2021 at 12:33

ik9000 said:
There's a reasonable propsect the damage now is the result of someone not trying to solve a problem previously and covering it up. That or just some possibly well-intentioned but ultimately botched repair work previously. It's always better to deal with a problem then cover it up and hope it goes away. It won't.

that's rubbish. I had a traumatic childhood and ended up patching over it and bottling it up and tbh it's worked out fantastically. Who wants a fight?

ik9000 · 20 Jul 2021 at 12:35

James Peach said:
that's rubbish. I had a traumatic childhood and ended up patching over it and bottling it up and tbh it's worked out fantastically. Who wants a fight?

Didn't we all mate? But let's stay on focus with this one. Therapy is definitely not my expertise and for another area of the forums.

bazzabear · 20 Jul 2021 at 12:41

James Peach said:
that's rubbish. I had a traumatic childhood and ended up patching over it and bottling it up and tbh it's worked out fantastically. Who wants a fight?

I can't help, but that is a brilliant post.

Blackjack Davy · 21 Jul 2021 at 15:42

Dyson said:
I think he is the freeholder

I think he's the leaseholder and the freeholder owns the rest including the land which is a common problem place is falling apart and you pay a king's ransom in maintenance and ground rent every year for... lord knows what.

James Peach · 22 Jul 2021 at 12:04

Blackjack Davy said:
I think he's the leaseholder and the freeholder owns the rest including the land which is a common problem place is falling apart and you pay a king's ransom in maintenance and ground rent every year for... lord knows what.

That's essentially it. But we're trying to buy the freehold (which they have to sell to us once they've made a big fuss) but that might take a while.

Here is my updated video

I think I'll try what @Molep said I don't know what's MDF and what's not now.

That's the problem with super old houses; I don't know how far down the rabbit hole I'm willing to go.

ik9000 · 22 Jul 2021 at 12:34

You're not the freeholder - you shouldn't be hacking away at it. The freeholder should be instructing any intrusive work, including investigation. I imagine you are in breach of your lease here.

What is currently there appears to be substandard and defective. It needs properly diagnosing and appropriately repairing. But that is for your freeholder to coordinate. They should appoint a Chartered Surveyor and/or architect to report and recommend further detailed investigations (together with any specialists whose input might be needed).

Don't try and cover this up. If it were me I'd consider emailing them a picture with "a big bit of the wall just fell off in the recent storm! I've done my best to temporarily protect it with some sheeting - hence the plastic and parcel tape, but someone needs to come out and look at this asap. Also the current detail appears to be chipboard and some kind of render which does not seem to be suitable - this needs a proper review and not just a patch repair as the condition of the timber suggests there is a wider underlying problem of moisture ingress rotting the embedded timbers."

Tuck that email away on file and when it comes to acquiring freehold get your own survey and show the surveyor everything you've encountered. It may help give you ammunition when negotiating price of the Freehold since there are demonstrable problems that you will be taking on.

Oh and that vertical gap doesn't look abnormal. The timber on the right is probably structural stud framing. That on the left, window surround or an extra stud timber to receive the window. There may or may not be packing noggins between them at discrete locations, but of all the things going on it seems the least of your concerns at the moment. Gaps like that aren't unusual.

James Peach · 22 Jul 2021 at 12:42

ik9000 said:
You're not the freeholder - you shouldn't be hacking away at it. The freeholder should be instructing any intrusive work, including investigation. I imagine you are in breach of your lease here.

What is currently there appears to be substandard and defective. It needs properly diagnosing and appropriately repairing. But that is for your freeholder to coordinate. They should appoint a Chartered Surveyor and/or architect to report and recommend further detailed investigations (together with any specialists whose input might be needed).

Don't try and cover this up. If it were me I'd consider emailing them a picture with "a big bit of the wall just fell off in the recent storm! I've done my best to temporarily protect it with some sheeting - hence the plastic and parcel tape, but someone needs to come out and look at this asap. Also the current detail appears to be chipboard and some kind of render which does not seem to be suitable - this needs a proper review and not just a patch repair as the condition of the timber suggests there is a wider underlying problem of moisture ingress rotting the embedded timbers."

Tuck that email away on file and when it comes to acquiring freehold get your own survey and show the surveyor everything you've encountered. It may help give you ammunition when negotiating price of the Freehold since there are demonstrable problems that you will be taking on.

Oh and that vertical gap doesn't look abnormal. The timber on the right is probably structural stud framing. That on the left, window surround or an extra stud timber to receive the window. There may or may not be packing noggins between them at discrete locations, but of all the things going on it seems the least of your concerns at the moment. Gaps like that aren't unusual.

Thanks. The freeholder is aware of the problems with the roof, water ingress etc and I had a detailed survey done when I moved in. It's something that we know needs to be done but I hadn't thought about the mdf on the window being in breach of lease. But you're right.

Anyway, before I moved in the freeholder was going to sort out the repairs but the price the builder they insisted on using was astronomical compared to the other quotes we got so we've been at odds with them over this ever since with nothing being done. Right now we pay a lot of money for a "service charge" that, as far as I'm aware, they mostly pocket. We're waiting to get the freehold so we can organise this ourselves.

Thanks for bringing the breach of lease to my attention. I'll patch up as best I can.

dirtychinchilla · 22 Jul 2021 at 16:25

I'm sorry, I can't help you at all but I just wanted to say that your videos cracked me up.