Is English the most logical language?

[Raymond Lin]

In Chinese it would be “I last year been.”

5 words (been is 2 words).

One example and draw final conclusion? Of course not…are we?

 

[potatolord]

My girlfriend is Polish so I have just embarked on trying to learn it.

I am faced with the same illogical grammatical structures that I remember back from school when we were forced to learn French and German.

It begs the question to me whether English is by far the best language, and by 'the best', I mean the most easy to understand and construct.

For example, in Polish and in many other languages they have masculine and feminine terms. For some unknown reason to me, in Polish, a horse is masculine and a cow is feminine. Ive just learned that if I wanted to say 'one horse' I would have to say Jeden kon whereas if I wanted to say 'one cow' I would have to say Jedna krowa. How in any possible logical argument can you say that you need two separate words to say the number 'one'? It simply is an unnecessary addition.

Im sure English has its oddities too but to my mind there is certainly no odd/illogical grammatical behaviour.

I did German in school, which seemed very logical.

Latin was hugely complicated. I remember having to memorise huge lists of verb conjugations, which was no fun.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Btw, those words seems complex to you because you are NOT a native speaker. Remember that you are not objective in this.

Also, when you are fluent in another language, you don’t even think how it’s put together and it’s complexity, you just do it because it sounds right. At that point it all make sense and logical, like you think English is.

You need to be fluent in a few languages, like 2nd nature before drawing any conclusions.

 

[danlightbulb]

One example and draw final conclusion? Of course not…are we?

No of course not, Im genuinely interested in this. because if Im going to learn how to speak Polish I will need to understand how to construct words into sentences. I can learn words, we all can, using them to make sense is a different matter entirely. Languages in school were about learning words off sheets endlessly, does anyone remember actually learning about the rules for constructing sentences with them? I certainly don't. No wonder we are a nation terrible at speaking other languages.

 

[danlightbulb]

Btw, those words seems complex to you because you are NOT a native speaker. Remember that you are not objective in this.

Also, when you are fluent in another language, you don’t even think how it’s put together and it’s complexity, you just do it because it sounds right. At that point it all make sense and logical, like you think English is.

You need to be fluent in a few languages, like 2nd nature before drawing any conclusions.

So how do you go about identifying the rules of the language in order to learn it? As I said above I don't think endlessly reciting lists of words is going to teach me how to use the language.

Surely to fundamentally understand something, you have to understand the 'why' not just be parrot fed phrases from a handbook.

 

[Feef]

Well it was just a question I was interested in. The discussion then moved on and expanded, which is good. We should be judging language based on all those factors?

Sure, I'll go with that, with the caveat that I don't think we should be judging languages at all.

You can say it your way too and it works fine, just as you put there. 'I have been there last year' works just fine.

You... Can't? That's just incorrect English.

if you break down that phrase its quite logical.

• 'I' means me, the first person, Im talking about myself and it comes first in the sentence which makes sense, unlike other languages which sometimes don't put the participant first.

Yes.

• 'have' means im taking about the past, something that has already happened.

As in "I have a cat"? That's not what people are taught have means in the first instance.

• 'been' indicates travel or a physical movement.

Or a state, as in "I've been awake since 6", which has nothing to do with movement.

• 'there' indicates a location, obviously the one being discussed in the conversation.

Again, it's already being discussed, so unnecessary.

• 'last year' or whatever time you want to say, is the final bit to give more information but is optional.

Yes, except again, you can't say "I have been last year".

In Polish that sentence would be:

Byłem tam w zeszłym roku, which literally translated means:

• Byłem - I was - they already have a word for 'I' so why do you need a different word for 'I was'? Just have a word for 'I' and a word for 'was' and combine them when needed.
• tam - over there - different meaning when used standalone than when used in the sentence. Unnecessarily complex
• w - in
• zeszłym - last
  
• roku - year

So literally translated the Polish phrase is actually "I was over there in last year", which is wrong because it suggests you were there 'within' the last year not last year as in 2020 which it would mean in English.

So English is far more efficient and logical here.

I can't comment on that, I don't know any more than two words of Polish ;}

Here it is in Chinese:
我去年去过
Wǒ qùnián qùguò

I suggest that only using three words means those words are horrendously complex when you try and structure a sentence.

You wouldn't say that in Chinese though, you'd say 我去過, to mean "I have been to... ", or 我去年去, to mean "last year I went to..." - again, efficiency in speaking or writing.

 

[Raymond Lin]

My advice is actually forget the rules, yes…don’t spend you initial time learning the rules but spend the beginning learning the most common 1000 words used day to day.

Then butcher it to construct a sentence and you will get simple conversation going that way, and then when immerse yourself in the language you will pick up it’s structure and grammar as you go along as those are rules.

Whilst saying “I go to shop yesterday” or even “go to shop, me yesterday” makes no sense, you still know what I mean. Someone will correct you eventually or you will find out eventually but to get going quickly, learn those 1000 words first.

You are not trying to pass an exam here, you are tying to engage in an conversation or convey your thinking. It’s more important getting the facts out than having the correct grammar.

 

[Trifid]

You're confusing familiarity with ease of learning. English is a horrible language to learn as a non-native speaker because it lacks consistent rules and structure, and even when it seems to have some structure, there's loads of exceptions and special case rules.

Who doesn't want to plough through enough dough to make you cough or hiccough?

 

[danlightbulb]

My advice is actually forget the rules, yes…don’t spend you initial time learning the rules but spend the beginning learning the most common 1000 words used day to day.

Then butcher it to construct a sentence and you will get simple conversation going that way, and then when immerse yourself in the language you will pick up it’s structure and grammar as you go along as those are rules.

Whilst saying “I go to shop yesterday” or even “go to shop, me yesterday” makes no sense, you still know what I mean. Someone will correct you eventually or you will find out eventually but to get going quickly, learn those 1000 words first.

So from my first foreys into Polish, this is where it is difficult.

In English I would say I would need to learn:

• words for describing myself, i.e I, me, my.
• words for describing what I want to say about myself, i.e want, need, like etc
• nouns for describing the object of the sentence, eg apple, car, bus, whatever
• nicety words i.e please, thankyou, hello, goodbye etc.
• simple affirmatives eg yes, no etc

Simplistically speaking this is sufficient.
"I need a bus"
"I want a cake"
"Yes please I would like a drink"

Except in Polish, "I" cannot seemingly be combined with 'need' to make 'I need'. you have to learn a whole word for 'I need' which is 'potrzebuję'.


This is why Im saying English is easier. The building blocks are logical and can be pieced together like lego. You cannot do that in some other languages.

 

[Raymond Lin]

So from my first foreys into Polish, this is where it is difficult.

In English I would say I would need to learn:

• words for describing myself, i.e I, me, my.
• words for describing what I want to say about myself, i.e want, need, like etc
• nouns for describing the object of the sentence, eg apple, car, bus, whatever
• nicety words i.e please, thankyou, hello, goodbye etc.
• simple affirmatives eg yes, no etc

Simplistically speaking this is sufficient.
"I need a bus"
"I want a cake"
"Yes please I would like a drink"

Except in Polish, "I" cannot seemingly be combined with 'need' to make 'I need'. you have to learn a whole word for 'I need' which is 'potrzebuję'.


This is why Im saying English is easier. The building blocks are logical and can be pieced together like lego. You cannot do that in some other languages.

My advice still works, 1000 words first then build on it slowly as you go.

ps, one can argue why you need I, my, mine, me, myself…

 

[dirtychinchilla]

That is a building block though. How is it not? You’re learning one less word.

English verbs are NOT always constructed logically.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

No of course not, Im genuinely interested in this. because if Im going to learn how to speak Polish I will need to understand how to construct words into sentences. I can learn words, we all can, using them to make sense is a different matter entirely. Languages in school were about learning words off sheets endlessly, does anyone remember actually learning about the rules for constructing sentences with them? I certainly don't. No wonder we are a nation terrible at speaking other languages.

Yes, I learnt a boat load of rules for French. 13 years later and I can still hold a decent conversation.

I just told you one rule. 13 verbs don’t follow the rules.

 

[JRS]

My advice is actually forget the rules, yes…don’t spend you initial time learning the rules but spend the beginning learning the most common 1000 words used day to day.

Then butcher it to construct a sentence and you will get simple conversation going that way, and then when immerse yourself in the language you will pick up it’s structure and grammar as you go along as those are rules.

Whilst saying “I go to shop yesterday” or even “go to shop, me yesterday” makes no sense, you still know what I mean. Someone will correct you eventually or you will find out eventually but to get going quickly, learn those 1000 words first.

You are not trying to pass an exam here, you are tying to engage in an conversation or convey your thinking. It’s more important getting the facts out than having the correct grammar.

This.

Then one day you find yourself in the south-west of France and realise that you can go from actual French to Catalan-accented French to actual Catalan to drunken Catalan in the space of the same conversation 'round a bar table...and not only understand (nearly) every word of it but dip in and out of French and Catalan depending on which one of the half-cut Villelongaises you're talking to

 

[danlightbulb]

That is a building block though. How is it not? You’re learning one less word.

English verbs are NOT always constructed logically.

True, its a combined word, but I don't think you can really say any word can be more simple than 'I' to describe oneself in the first person. It is unnecessary to combine it and have separate words for I want, I need, I like, all containing I but different.

So for example:

• I need = potrzebuję
• I want = chcę
• I like = podoba mi się
• I have = mam

They bear no relation to each other whatsoever.

Of course if you can speak the language its fine, but I don't think you can say its logical if you were trying to objectively build a language or define simplicity.

 

[Raymond Lin]

True, its a combined word, but I don't think you can really say any word can be more simple than 'I' to describe oneself in the first person. It is unnecessary to combine it and have separate words for I want, I need, I like, all containing I but different.

So for example:

• I need = potrzebuję
• I want = chcę
• I like = podoba mi się
• I have = mam

They bear no relation to each other whatsoever.

You mean like the words need/want/like/have bear no resemblance to each other either, well, besides 4 letters each.

 

[4K8KW10]

How to spot a non native English speaker.

By the accent?!

My girlfriend is Polish so I have just embarked on trying to learn it.

I am faced with the same illogical grammatical structures that I remember back from school when we were forced to learn French and German.

It begs the question to me whether English is by far the best language, and by 'the best', I mean the most easy to understand and construct.

For example, in Polish and in many other languages they have masculine and feminine terms. For some unknown reason to me, in Polish, a horse is masculine and a cow is feminine. Ive just learned that if I wanted to say 'one horse' I would have to say Jeden kon whereas if I wanted to say 'one cow' I would have to say Jedna krowa. How in any possible logical argument can you say that you need two separate words to say the number 'one'? It simply is an unnecessary addition.

Im sure English has its oddities too but to my mind there is certainly no odd/illogical grammatical behaviour.

English is an easy language, yes. German is much harder and complicated.
Hungarian is probably nightmare.
Slavic languages are also more difficult to learn but they give you the freedom to construct a sentence in different orders.
They have masculine and feminine terms, and also like in Russian very difficult to learn Grammatical cases Grammatical case - Wikipedia

 

[Uther]

What did your girlfriend say when you told her her language was rubbish?

And that there 'her her' stupid English.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

True, its a combined word, but I don't think you can really say any word can be more simple than 'I' to describe oneself in the first person. It is unnecessary to combine it and have separate words for I want, I need, I like, all containing I but different.

So for example:

• I need = potrzebuję
• I want = chcę
• I like = podoba mi się
• I have = mam

They bear no relation to each other whatsoever.

Of course if you can speak the language its fine, but I don't think you can say its logical if you were trying to objectively build a language or define simplicity.

Man, I can tell you’ve not learnt a language before. I don’t mean to sound like a douche, but you’re just describing the fact that verbs have different endings. In using those different endings, you tell others to whom you’re referring. It’s simple and effective. Example:

I go, he goes.

There aren’t loads of these in English, but in most Romance languages they’ll all follow a similar pattern. That pattern is easily learnt.

In your example, each word bar the last ends in ę, so I assume that indicates I.

Just thinking about I go, he goes, wtf even is the rule there??

 

[danlightbulb]

You mean like the words need/want/like/have bear no resemblance to each other either, well, besides 4 letters each.

Not sure you're getting my point.

In English for example you learn I, you, need, want, like, have. That is six words and you can make 8 combinations right? Eg i want, you want. I need, you need. Yes?

In polish you would need to learn 8 separate words because you cannot learn a word for I and a word for 'you', and separate words for 'need, want, like, have' and combine them.

Eg in English:

I want, you want.

In Polish:

chcę, Chcesz


In English:

I like, you like.

In Polish:

podoba mi się, Lubisz

 

[Kreeeee]

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