Ole's sacked, who next?

[Shamikebab]

Because you've not said it literally, but clearly you're defending the performances and won't state your position in an absolute way.

No loss for me, everyone else on here can see your position for what it is.

No wonder I don't see you post much in here. You seem to struggle with discussion.

 

[Shamikebab]

Hahahahaha, your position on xG changes as quickly as Kerry Catona changes lovers. You'll quote it when it suits you but will question its worth when it doesn't. I give up, it's not worth the effort.

As I said, stats mean nothing without context. If you don't have the intelligence to understand what a stat is showing then it might as well be meaningless.

 

[Mekrel]

No wonder I don't see you post much in here. You seem to struggle with discussion.

Discussion is two way, usually when someone asks you a question, you respond unless it's a rhetorical question. I've stated my position and backed it up with facts, not that it's required - our league position and viewpoints of multiple pundits, including ex United players tell the story enough.

Football stadium: Manchester United are in a bad situation and the manager is out of his depth.
Shamikebab: insert excuses ranging from xG/injuries/deflected shots/poor officiating

 

[BaZ87]

Ok guys, settle down. You don't have to agree but keep it civil. Any more digs made from anybody and I'll start banning people from the thread.

 

[Shamikebab]

Discussion is two way, usually when someone asks you a question, you respond unless it's a rhetorical question. I've stated my position and backed it up with facts, not that it's required - our league position and viewpoints of multiple pundits, including ex United players tell the story enough.

Ok as you don't seem to be particularly active on here (and don't know how to check post history) Here is what I said when someone else asked me about Ole. UEFA Champions & Europa League Football Thread ** spoilers ** [19th - 21st October 2021] | Page 16 | Overclockers UK Forums

Again still waiting for you to show me where I've defended all our performances.

 

[Mekrel]

Ok as you don't seem to be particularly active on here (and don't know how to check post history) Here is what I said when someone else asked me about Ole. UEFA Champions & Europa League Football Thread ** spoilers ** [19th - 21st October 2021] | Page 16 | Overclockers UK Forums

Again still waiting for you to show me where I've defended all our performances.

I'm aware of that post, I actually read it at the time. Fair enough that states your position on Ole, but you do defend performances. I'm not going to trawl posts but I've definitely seen you mention deflected shots, and if those hadn't have happened then results/points would be different vs now. We can all take individual instances like that but ultimately, we've not kept a clean sheet for so long and I can't say those games were a case of the deflections being against the run of play.

Plus Atalanta were good value for the first half, which shouldn't be the case for a team that haven't exactly been staples in the Champions League and had several first team players out.

Also there's been times where you've referred to other teams/managers losing by similar margins or to similar weaker teams as a justification to our result. Of course freak results happen, look at the mauling Villa gave Liverpool. The difference is how consistently these things happen and they're getting all too consistent for us.

You're entitled to your opinion of course and apologies if I over stepped the mark at any point

Just to state my opinion on Ole: he'll always be a club legend in my eyes, and being realistic, he isn't going to walk away from the position despite him saying how much he loves the club. Nobody with half a brain will give up a pay off when the chips are down. If you were in his shoes and you were offered the chance to manage the club you love, who happen to be one of the biggest clubs in the world, you wouldn't turn it down.

The club ownership gave him the position and its now them who have to right that wrong. There's two issues at United right now and they're intertwined - 1) there's no structure and plan in place and this resulted in the incorrect appointment of Ole as manager and 2) the short term issue of Ole being out of his depth. Ole does need to go because he's ultimately not up to the task, but sacking him isn't going to change the long term performance because there needs to be a plan and structure in place.

 

[Shamikebab]

Exactly, I have no problem with Ole not walking away. Very few would with the financial implications, it's on the management above him to act. If they do I hope they have a plan for what happens next. This is the first big test for Murtough.

 

[Robbo]

So in short, the Man Utd journalists are all saying, consistently:

• He's lost the dressing room, the players don't think he can turn it around
• The board are currently debating what to do and are in 'crisis talks'
• People within the club were stunned that he picked the same team vs Liverpool that played against Atalanta

The reasonably well placed Italian sources are also now saying we're in contact with Conte, and he seems to want the job.

Looking at all the press stories and near radio silence from the club over the past 24 hours, surely he's finished?

Tomorrow will be telling, announcement in the morning most likely, if there is going to be one.

 

[Shamikebab]

Conte seems to want the job but there are noises coming from our side that we're not convinced by him (same feelings myself) His tactics don't fit us at all, he has a poor record with youth, he falls out with every club and implodes after a few years. It's Mourinho mk2.

I would actually rather we gambled on someone with less experience who fits us better.

 

[Robbo]

Conte seems to want the job but there are noises coming from our side that we're not convinced by him (same feelings myself) His tactics don't fit us at all, he has a poor record with youth, he falls out with every club and implodes after a few years. It's Mourinho mk2.

I would actually rather we gambled on someone with less experience who fits us better.

I understand the sentiment around Conte but having looked into it a bit more, I do think it's a bit misguided. The video I posted earlier is quite interesting, from someone who knows a lot about him.

I would say that regardless of style he's the one manager out there who is close to the 'elite' bracket with Klopp & Pep.

 

[uber soldat]

Knowing our board when tomorrow comes they'll release a statement along the lines of " we fully support the manager and his team, it's a game of fine margins and he needs time to continue the good level of progress we have seen"

#Glazersout

 

[Shamikebab]

I understand the sentiment around Conte but having looked into it a bit more, I do think it's a bit misguided. The video I posted earlier is quite interesting, from someone who knows a lot about him.

I would say that regardless of style he's the one manager out there who is close to the 'elite' bracket with Klopp & Pep.

I watched the start I'll have to find some time to watch the whole thing. From my perspective it just seems like the formations he likes would lead to us trying to fit 6 players into 2 positions up front, no right wingback unless we use Dalot and AWB left nowhere.

 

[Mekrel]

I really do believe the comments around playing as individuals is warranted.

Take Mason Greenwood for example. I do think he's a fantastic player as an individual - technically gifted and can definitely finish with both feet but I question his value to the team with the current setup.

In the PL, he has averaged 81 minutes per game i.e. played pretty much every game outright. Whilst you could argue his goal return is good with 4 goals in 9, his chances converted is only 14% because he attempts so many shots on goal coming in off the right. However, he has no assists, only created 2 big chances in total and has 1.3 key passes on average per game. He's also lost possession nearly 12 times a game on average too.

Am I suggesting he's a bad player? Not at all, I just don't think he's playing the right side role that we need him to play. AWB isn't creative in the final 3rd to make up for the fact Greenwood isn't assisting anything from the right.

 

[BaZ87]

I watched the start I'll have to find some time to watch the whole thing. From my perspective it just seems like the formations he likes would lead to us trying to fit 6 players into 2 positions up front, no right wingback unless we use Dalot and AWB left nowhere.

You're already in a situation where you're trying to shoehorn players into the side though. You don't have the players to play any sort of system that has a 2 man central midfield and yet you continue to play a 4-2-3-1 just to fit an extra attacking player in. And it's not as if those attackers are playing in positions they're really comfortable with either. Playing wide in a 4-2-3-1 and wide in a 4-3-3 is very different. In a 4-2-3-1 the wide players cannot be out and out forwards or at least you've got to restrict their attacking instinct and be a hell of a lot more hard working than they are. This coupled with the fact that Ronaldo and Fernandes don't really defend from the front has been why Utd have been cut open so often this season.

You mention playing a Conte system might lead you to having to leave out a number of players but sometimes big calls have to be made for the good of the team. The best managers make those calls and do so with a clear idea of what they're doing and what the end goal is. Conte had to make a big call a few months into his time at Chelsea after back to back defeats to Liverpool and Arsenal - there was speculation that he was about to be sacked but he was brave enough to make the changes he thought were needed. He switched to a 3-4-3, using Azpilicueta as a CB for the first time and Moses as a right wingback. Chelsea went on a 13(?) match winning run and won the League.

Something needs to change at Utd and Ole doesn't have the balls or brains to make the changes that need making.

 

[Trusty]

Rashford as RWB speciale?

 

[Mark1989]

Conte would also happily drop players who don't work for the team.

So yes it may upset the likes of Pogba who is a lazy **** anyway but it would benefit utd as awhole

However keep ole its fun for every one else

 

[Caseh]

Conte would also happily drop players who don't work for the team.

So yes it may upset the likes of Pogba who is a lazy **** anyway but it would benefit utd as awhole

However keep ole its fun for every one else

Yeah, I personally hope Ole stays

 

[The Running Man]

I really do believe the comments around playing as individuals is warranted.

Take Mason Greenwood for example. I do think he's a fantastic player as an individual - technically gifted and can definitely finish with both feet but I question his value to the team with the current setup.

In the PL, he has averaged 81 minutes per game i.e. played pretty much every game outright. Whilst you could argue his goal return is good with 4 goals in 9, his chances converted is only 14% because he attempts so many shots on goal coming in off the right. However, he has no assists, only created 2 big chances in total and has 1.3 key passes on average per game. He's also lost possession nearly 12 times a game on average too.

Am I suggesting he's a bad player? Not at all, I just don't think he's playing the right side role that we need him to play. AWB isn't creative in the final 3rd to make up for the fact Greenwood isn't assisting anything from the right.

Sancho has 0 goals, zero assists from the any side in how many appearances?

Greenwood has been amazing.

 

[Shamikebab]

You're already in a situation where you're trying to shoehorn players into the side though. You don't have the players to play any sort of system that has a 2 man central midfield and yet you continue to play a 4-2-3-1 just to fit an extra attacking player in. And it's not as if those attackers are playing in positions they're really comfortable with either. Playing wide in a 4-2-3-1 and wide in a 4-3-3 is very different. In a 4-2-3-1 the wide players cannot be out and out forwards or at least you've got to restrict their attacking instinct and be a hell of a lot more hard working than they are. This coupled with the fact that Ronaldo and Fernandes don't really defend from the front has been why Utd have been cut open so often this season.

Did you just compare Ronaldo's pressing to Fernandes

It's one thing having to leave out one player, it's quite another to have to leave out 4 or 5. That's almost a complete rebuild and would be very difficult. Especially when it puts the future of academy players like Greenwood at risk.

I watched the video, some bits were reassuring but the bit on playing youth was just a joke, the only examples he could think of in Conte's entire career was Pogba, Bastoni and Barella. Barella joined at 22 and had already been playing first team football for 3 years in Serie A. Bastoni joined from Atalanta and already had a year's first team football. None of his examples were academy players which is a pretty damning record.

Then of course there is the Europe record which is actually probably worse than Ole's .

 

[Mekrel]

Sancho has 0 goals, zero assists from the any side in how many appearances?

Greenwood has been amazing.

He's started the grand total of 3 games in the PL and on average has played half a game of football in the Premier League.

He hasn't (Greenwood) been amazing in my opinion. Sure, with the ball at his feet he looks energetic but he's not playing for the team, he's pretty greedy. Greenwood is a great example of how we have too many players for certain positions because ultimately he wants to be a number 9, or at least wants to play as narrow as say Salah does for Liverpool (which he can't because the rest of the squad around him)

Look at Greenwood's heat map for the EPL this season, he's playing extremely wide but isn't creating anything from out there.

It's about the team, not individuals.

Salah:


Greenwood:


So he's not in and around the opposition box like an attacking wide player should be, but he's also not assisting anything from out wide. As I said, not saying he's a bad player but he isn't doing what we need in a wide role in the current set up. Not saying he's the reason for our issues, there's plenty of other areas attributing to our poor results but it's a good example in my opinion.