Job advertisements, Why do they do it!

[HangTime]

It's annoying that working hours are often not stated in adverts. 40hrs is quite a big 'pay cut' compared to 35hrs for a given wage, and knowing start/end time is important for assessing the feasibility of commuting.

Some would argue that working hours are kind of 'irrelevant' in some jobs in the sense of you are expected to work extra hours to get the job done anyway but I still like to know what I'm contracted to.

 

[dowie]

I got feedback from an initial interview that they didn't like that I asked about the package.
I don't see that I had much choice, they didn't provide the info up-front and it's impossible to decide if you're interested without it.
Complete waste of time.

Who gave you the feedback and who did you arrange the initial interview with? Could you not have asked them?

Not that it's necessarily always a bad thing to ask about when they say "any questions" during the interview but you don't necessarily know for sure if the people interviewing you at some stage in the process have any say or necessarily any knowledge of the salary. It's better to address that question to HR or the recruiter you're dealing with than to put people on the spot.

For example, an old colleague of mine, working at a US bank in London now in a VP level role, their team wanted to recruit someone, another VP, my friend conducted the first interview in London, next interview was going to be a video call with his boss in NYC etc.. thing is the candidate said in the interview with my mate " so the base for this role is X-Y right?" and my mate was kinda put on the spot, the range the candidate had quoted was actually a bit higher than the base my mate earned! After the interviews, there was an awkward conversation between my mate and his boss in NYC about the fact he was interviewing candidates they were considering bringing in for about 20% more than he was currently on!

I mean if it's a small company and you know for sure your interview is with the hiring manager and there are no others present then sure but it can become rather awkward if you're not or if there are other team members present or indeed people from other teams within the company that your (potential team) has dealings with, those people aren't necessarily supposed to know how much they're considering offering you. That could become super awkward for the hiring manager if you start quoting numbers or asking him/her for them with others present save for him/her & HR etc...

It's annoying that working hours are often not stated in adverts. 40hrs is quite a big 'pay cut' compared to 35hrs for a given wage, and knowing start/end time is important for assessing the feasibility of commuting.

Some would argue that working hours are kind of 'irrelevant' in some jobs in the sense of you are expected to work extra hours to get the job done anyway but I still like to know what I'm contracted to.

I'd argue that for sure, I guess it depends on the nature of the work, for example if it is say tech support work then hours (and indeed timing of shifts) become relevant, you're then dealing with tickets, coverage of particular parts of the day, how often do you need to work evenings or nights or weekends and what are they paying for that etc..

But for a normal working hours or flexitime, Monday-Friday, ongoing project work type job or similar then IME the contracted hours just aren't relevant at all, in lots of those roles if you often have a bit of flexibility/personal discretion re: what time you turn up and/or go home, maybe you've got a dentist appointment Tuesday morning so aren't coming in until 11pm or perhaps you need to work from home on Wednesday because you have a plumber arriving etc.. maybe you've got on top of everything important this week and it's a nice sunny Friday so you're going to head out to the pub at 3pm, does it matter that you only got in at 9:30am so aren't working your contracted hours that particular day? No one should really care as perhaps you worked longer earlier in the week, even that shouldn't matter really, the important thing is are you good and are you getting stuff done.

Obvs pub at 3pm in your very first week working at a new place, unless invited to do so, is probs not a good early impression but once you've been shown to be able to deliver the goods as required then people keeping track of your hours (aside from logging them for projects/billable hours) isn't important.

 

[HangTime]

If the hours don't matter then why do they put them in the contract (I imagine it's a legal requirement?) and surely there's no harm in putting them in the advert for the people that do care about it...
Regardless of whether people should care or not, some people do. I used to have a job where I would typically arrive at ~09:05 (contracted start 09:00) because the train timetable meant the alternative was getting a slower train a lot earlier. Some manager that sat near me moaned about it but I used the argument that I was taking my smoking break at 09:00 every day (the company handbook stated you could take 5 or 10mins in the morning and afternoon, and if you felt disadvantaged by not smoking you could take equivalent breaks). It's a bit of a tangent but one issue with the "who cares what hours they do if they are good/getting stuff done" is it can foster resentment in others i.e. if the 9-5ers see joe bloggs hitting the pub at 3pm perhaps they take their foot off the gas in the afternoon or gossip about it.

More to the point though another issue with hours is some teams have standups or similar ceremonies at/near the start/end of the day, so depending on working hours it might not be that simple to just be working flexible hours all the time. Logistically I like to know what I'm getting myself into, a 09:00 vs 09:30 start makes quite a difference. I used to sometimes have to drop my son off at nursery on the way to work and it was impossible to get there for 9am.

Then you've got overtime, some jobs pay that so you obviously want to be on a 35hr contract instead of a 40hr contract if you are working 40hrs a week.

Not that big a deal but it can also cause friction at home if people are working beyond their contract hours, e.g. the partner wants them at the dinner table at Y o'clock based on them being contracted to finish at X o'clock, if they work beyond X o'clock and are late for dinner (just an example there's probably more serious things) then that is rightly or wrongly perceived as them choosing work over their partner, because technically they can walk out the office at X o'clock but they didn't. Conversely it makes you feel less guilty about working if you are contracted to do it rather than optionally choosing to do it above and beyond .

Ultimately when push comes to shove you have a contract and the fact that hours are generally quite fluid with a fair bit of give and a little take doesn't alter the fact that there might be a time when you need to work to rule and hence knowing what the rules are up front is helpful. It's not so much that the hours per week is a particular deciding factor on whether I'd want to take a job but a) I need to check the logistics to ensure if I need to work those hours it is feasible; and b) it's just nicer knowing up front because it's quite an awkward question to ask (more awkward than salary) without giving the impression that you are a clock-watcher who'll have the PC logged off and coat on ready to go at 17:29. One job I think I only found out when I got the offer what the hours were.

I work quite erratic hours at times with evening meetings outside of my contracted hours because it helps with US based stakeholders and conversely I start later than I'm contracted to most of the time. Or there will be a document that needs updating so it can go out and I'll work on it out of hours etc. Or I take a long lunch break to go for a meal with family. So I get the concept of not rigidly sticking to hours - indeed I have felt for many years that it improves efficiency by smoothing out peaks and troughs - but that doesn't mean I don't want to know what the official hours are.

 

[Rroff]

Depending on job, if it is run of the mill stuff and no mention of hours or pay in the ad they either don't give a **** about you as an employee - don't apply unless desperate or there might be some flexibility there, still not a great way to approach it though.

For management or higher stuff then if they aren't being specific it is often that it will be very negotiable and if you have solid experience and something to offer, etc. the ball is more in your court.

Likewise I've noticed it seems to be more and more a thing these days - often with other quite important details omitted like the role involves doing say 2 evenings a week but advertised as "competitive hours" or something...

 

[malachi]

Usually means the pay is crap when they use the word competitive. Throwing out a low ball and see who catches it.

Been caught out by that once, never again!

 

[dowie]

If the hours don't matter then why do they put them in the contract (I imagine it's a legal requirement?) and surely there's no harm in putting them in the advert for the people that do care about it...

Because these are often largely boilerplate contracts that apply across the country, I didn't say hours don't matter in general, I'm highlighting that they don't for some jobs. the company might have some standard contract, maybe tweaking the notice period (1 month vs 3 months) depending on whether you're junior or senior, might have a separate NDA and non-compete agreement if you're working with IP etc...

It just depends on the role whether the contract hours are relevant or not - if you've been hired as a secretary or you're working in client services/support or in inhouse IT then it might well be relevant, those jobs might be clock in/clock off and/or shift pay. If you're doing project work with a team that allows for flexitime, working from home etc.. and perhaps with members in different timezones/locations then it has very little relevance, putting it in the advert would be moot/irrelevant.

[...]
Then you've got overtime, some jobs pay that so you obviously want to be on a 35hr contract instead of a 40hr contract if you are working 40hrs a week.

Well sure, I agree there you're highlighting jobs where it does have relevance. If you're paid for set hours or work shifts etc.. then overtime matters.

It's not so much that the hours per week is a particular deciding factor on whether I'd want to take a job but a) I need to check the logistics to ensure if I need to work those hours it is feasible; and b) it's just nicer knowing up front because it's quite an awkward question to ask (more awkward than salary) without giving the impression that you are a clock-watcher who'll have the PC logged off and coat on ready to go at 17:29.

But my point is in relation to jobs where it isn't relevant, with some teams it could very well be variable. I mean have you ever seen accountancy/finance guys when handling month-end and year end stuff, their hours increase significantly during those periods, contracted hours don't have much relevance necessarily.

In some cases it is going to be something you're going to have to ask about in an interview, I'd suggest perhaps throwing it in with questions about how much travel is required, working from home and how flexible start times are... some companies will explicitly say you can start anytime before say 11 am for example... it can just be a general question thrown in among all the other relevant ones, doens't have to come across as you're a clock watcher and exact hours are important to you. The actual team itself will be better placed to tell you about their team culture, working style etc.. than any advert. A good recruiter *might* be able to give you a heads up on that sort of stuff too, though likely only if they work with that company a lot and know the culture.

It might be the case that the team is expanding and has a load of work thus why they're hiring, your first few months there might be busy but once some project is out of the way things will settle down - if this stuff is variable then as per the salary it isn't necessarily going to be as simple as just putting some contracted hours in the advert.

As for others who have to turn up 9-5 and get jealous, I just don't see the relevance of people like that, why should someone else's pettiness affect you, if you're delivering the goods and performing well then...

 

[Lmg80]

Because not everyone on the team gets paid the same generally speaking last through the door (min wage jobs aside) get paid more. They don't want to share that info to the rest of the team

 

[Deleted member 77746]

Because not everyone on the team gets paid the same generally speaking last through the door (min wage jobs aside) get paid more. They don't want to share that info to the rest of the team

Disgusting, anyone doing the same job should be paid the same.

 

[Lmg80]

Disgusting, anyone doing the same job should be paid the same.

Could not agree more, but it's the way it is.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

Could not agree more, but it's the way it is.

Would I **** work somewhere where wages are not equal.

 

[Housey]

And nobody likes to ask what the wage is during an interview!

What's your thoughts guys?

Totally agree as that is far too late to be asking that question

Get it out in the open from the outset and clearly state the level you are looking for. Never shy away from being open about your value and what YOUR demnds are.

95% of the "Career Defining" roles put my way on a weekly basis, many via a boiler plate email, get zero follow up when I provide my terms for a discussion.

"Paying top money" is a relative term.

 

[HangTime]

Would I **** work somewhere where wages are not equal.

This attitude could potentially restrict your opportunities a lot. Pretty much every employer I have worked at has not had equality of wages, and I've worked somewhere that was ranked (Glassdoor) in the top10 best companies to work for in the UK three years running. Admittedly, the public sector is a bit more structured, but then in many cases they pay less to begin with (i.e. you could earn more as someone 'underpaid' in the private sector compared to 'fairly' paid in the public sector).

 

[Deleted member 77746]

This attitude could potentially restrict your opportunities a lot. Pretty much every employer I have worked at has not had equality of wages, and I've worked somewhere that was ranked (Glassdoor) in the top10 best companies to work for in the UK three years running.

Don't trust glassdoor. Too many fake reviews. That's the same with every single review site online. I do not trust any review site.

I don't think it will. So you telling me you would work for 30k if the same colleague was been paid 50k for the same job.

Balls would you!

 

[HangTime]

I've had the same job title as someone earning £20k more than me in the past, if that counts. It was still worth taking the promotion to get that role to use as a stepping stone to move onto a higher paying role elsewhere I believe.

I guess 'same job' is hard to quantify in a lot of places too, I mean literally everywhere I see people getting paid different salaries, but they may have differing levels of experience, or perform different duties.

Look at gender pay gap reporting (required for top companies now I believe). Pretty much universally every one has pay imbalance, so you are basically saying you'd never work for a FTSE100 company.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

I guess 'same job' is hard to quantify in a lot of places too, I mean literally everywhere I see people getting paid different salaries, but they may have differing levels of experience, or perform different duties.

If they are performing different duties then they not doing the same job are they so then that's fine. If it's not exactly the same job different salaries are welcome as long as the job title is justified.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Where? Doing what? Who for? How long? How much?

Never once set up an interview without knowing the answers to the above.

 

[Housey]

Disgusting, anyone doing the same job should be paid the same.

That wouldn’t work and is why they have pay grades. Experience means something in business as it should do.

 

[Deleted member 77746]

That wouldn’t work and is why they have pay grades. Experience means something in business as it should do.

Not if you are doing the same job, why should it? Just because for example you have better skills but doing the same job as me why should you be paid 20k more?


nah.

 

[randomshenans]

Not if you are doing the same job, why should it? Just because for example you have better skills but doing the same job as me why should you be paid 20k more?

Age plays a part... you need somewhere to go.

At our place you have bands and pay scales within those bands. The limit of say band 4 is 180k - the start is 120k. If you came in as say a 28yr old to that band, they'd want to try and put you lower in the banding because through time you'll get higher and higher as you do more years in the job. Put you at the top, you max out the possible increases too quickly.

 

[tom_e]

Not if you are doing the same job, why should it? Just because for example you have better skills but doing the same job as me why should you be paid 20k more?


nah.

Because I can get those tasks done in half the time with half the bugs as the bloke that's just started but we're still doing the same thing.