Long long time until we have truely automated cars?

dlockers · 11 Dec 2021 at 13:32

[TW]Fox said:
Says the guy with an old E Class?

An old E Class with 400hp and AWD; that for me offers something I won't get from an Uber, or whatever 'cost of ownership' calculation is required to give us autonomous delivery of rental vehicles.

I asked a question in a discussion forum about cars - where do I say any other view isn't welcome?

I mean you intimated pretty heavily here that my view wasn't welcome in this forum (and you have said a similar in the past when I suggested the idea):

[TW]Fox said:
Cars are more than simple transit from A to B which is why we're wasting our time arguing about them in the OcUK Motors Section and there is nobody in the OcUK dishwasher forum.

(note, I wasn't arguing at all, just raising what I think is the sensible solution)

I'd like to understand just how many people genuinely want to be entirely removed from the driving process - especially as its becoming increasingly clear that it'll be all or nothing rather than a mix of driven and driverless cars.

That's your prerogative. I'm not sure why you were so obtuse about the post I made though, as for me it bridged the gap between 'people who want to be entirely removed from the driving experience' and where driverless cars could form part of a wider value chain.

Meanwhile this appears to be your single contribution to the entire discussion...

And this just isn't true.

[TW]Fox · 11 Dec 2021 at 14:29

dLockers said:
An old E Class with 400hp and AWD; that for me offers something I won't get from an Uber, or whatever 'cost of ownership' calculation is required to give us autonomous delivery of rental vehicles.

I was joking based on what you said - your E Class is neither old nor uninteresting. It's actually one of the cars I like the most on here these days. It's existence further highlights my point, though - cars are, for almost everyone who owns one, more than just transport. If that were not true there would be no real market for 'better' or 'nicer' cars - because a Dacia would do for everyone. Even people who claim to be uninterested in cars clearly are to some extent or they'd not be driving a Range Rover Evoque.

I mean you intimated pretty heavily here that my view wasn't welcome in this forum (and you have said a similar in the past when I suggested the idea):

I think you've read rather more into what I said than I meant. I didn't say your view wasn't useful, I said the autonomous car on demand service wasn't useful, I think there is quite a difference!

I mean, my point is this - it sounds useful on paper and it's certainly what I think is driving progress. Everyone thinks it'll be useful, but really how useful is it? Like I said, such services already exists and are not used anything like as much as you'd expect if there was all this demand to be freed from having to drive yourself places and just click a button on an app to make a car appear. You can already do this...

And this just isn't true.

You're right - it isn't. I'd completely missed the fact it was your post I originally replied to. I mistakenly assumed you'd popped in to have a go and nothing more - I was wrong and I apologise for that.

Jonnycoupe · 11 Dec 2021 at 15:51

Waymo is offering the service already so everyone seems to be getting excited about today?

Nasher · 11 Dec 2021 at 19:57

[TW]Fox said:
I still don't really understand who this does interest. Who actually *wants* a driverless car?

That seems to be the question they never actually asked to begin with. I don't think demand for this is as big as they think

The reality is most people just aren't going to trust a machine built to a tight budget with their lives. It goes against basic survival instincts.

dlockers · 11 Dec 2021 at 20:20

Nasher said:
That seems to be the question they never actually asked to begin with. I don't think demand for this is as big as they think

The reality is most people just aren't going to trust a machine built to a tight budget with their lives. It goes against basic survival instincts.

Yet they fly Ryanair for 19.99

MrWhippy · 11 Dec 2021 at 22:47

Driverless hgvs trunking freight overnight anyone?

HangTime · 12 Dec 2021 at 03:15

I agree with you. My gut feeling is they probably won't be a thing until I'm around retirement age and hence will have less need to travel anyway.

One of the issues is, we are reliant on a road network that dates back centuries in places. If we were starting from scratch, we could probably build roads in a consistent way that would be well suited to automation, because there would be less variables for a system to have to handle. But instead we have a patchwork of pathways built up over time to different standards - yes this it mitigated to some extent by signage, road resurfacing etc, but we still have a mishmash of windy lanes with limited visibility, modern highways, junctions with all sorts of different angles etc,

Malevolence · 12 Dec 2021 at 06:20

If driverless cars that don't feature any controls at all, except maybe a big red 'Emergency Stop' button, become the norm then will you need a driving licence?

m4rmite · 12 Dec 2021 at 07:19

Malevolence said:
If driverless cars that don't feature any controls at all, except maybe a big red 'Emergency Stop' button, become the norm then will you need a driving licence?

Perhaps just an emergency stop licence?

builder22 · 12 Dec 2021 at 09:33

A red button ‘ticket’

M1k3H · 12 Dec 2021 at 11:55

The real issue is legislation rather than roads.

Most manufacturers have built in 'self driving' modes in their cars, but they can't turn them on as there's no regulatory requirements yet. What this means for them is that if something goes wrong with a system that they did not test to regulatory requirements, they'd be open to lawsuits.

Regulators are reluctant because they don't have enough data yet and there's also the really hard to answer questions like: do you run over 10 middle aged people or 5 young adults/kids? How does the AI determine the value of life? Until we define the value of life, it'll be difficult to actually implement laws that define tests that the manufacturers can use to 'approve' their systems.

Myself, I like cars, but also like automation. I'd welcome a future where I can rent a driveless car (not a taxi, as it has a driver), and all/most cars on the main roads are driveless. They would reduce traffic immensely and change travelling to be a relaxing experience, reduce the footprint of car parks everywhere, increase productivity, increase wages (as we transition from drivers to engineers that monitor/design/build/maintain the various systems this sector would need), reduce emissions both due to efficiency and lack of ownership, and of course reduce loss of life and accidents.

I'd still like to be able to drive my own car as well, but I suspect in 50-100years, cars that need drivers would need to be banned from at least main roads as automation will deliver efficiency only if there's limited unknowns, and humans are the biggest unknown in the equation!

200sols · 12 Dec 2021 at 12:28

[TW]Fox said:
OcUK dishwasher forum.

Sounds like fun though.

Jonnycoupe · 12 Dec 2021 at 12:30

200sols said:
Sounds like fun though.

Threads tend to get salty fast.

Nasher · 12 Dec 2021 at 12:59

MrWhippy said:
Driverless hgvs trunking freight overnight anyone?

Until a road is closed and then what happens, they won't be able to to navigate back roads and will get stuck.

BUDFORCE · 12 Dec 2021 at 14:32

Yea I remember someone saying why you shouldn't get into HGV driving as it'll become automated/driverless - again because of the legality/liability I just can't see that happening for a very long time.

dlockers · 12 Dec 2021 at 16:25

HangTime said:
I agree with you. My gut feeling is they probably won't be a thing until I'm around retirement age and hence will have less need to travel anyway.

One of the issues is, we are reliant on a road network that dates back centuries in places. If we were starting from scratch, we could probably build roads in a consistent way that would be well suited to automation, because there would be less variables for a system to have to handle. But instead we have a patchwork of pathways built up over time to different standards - yes this it mitigated to some extent by signage, road resurfacing etc, but we still have a mishmash of windy lanes with limited visibility, modern highways, junctions with all sorts of different angles etc,

It's amazing how folk on a tech forum still think humans are smarter

Diagro · 12 Dec 2021 at 18:24

[TW]Fox said:
I still don't really understand who this does interest. Who actually *wants* a driverless car?

I do.

But I don't want to own one.

Happy to ride in one to work, and any accidents are on the cars owner, not me.

Hotwired · 12 Dec 2021 at 19:07

This is a lot of beating around the bush to describe a driverless taxi service.

[TW]Fox · 12 Dec 2021 at 19:14

Diagro said:
I do.

But I don't want to own one.

Happy to ride in one to work.

Why not call an Uber? The future is here already if that's all you want.

Diagro · 12 Dec 2021 at 20:21

[TW]Fox said:
Why not call an Uber? The future is here already if that's all you want.

I don't want the inconvenience of having a person in the car.
Plus it's more expensive with a person...

Cheaper if no driver.
No need for small talk.