Tories lost the 2019 election among working age adults

[hurfdurf]

Being happy and content with life isn't just about material things, nor is it about keeping up with a benchmark you obsess over. That is a route to anger and convincing yourself and others they are helpless and worthless. I am genuinely sorry you seem to have convinced yourself of this.

You also seem to think I wouldn't change the status quo, which isn't true. My argument against your position isn't anti change, but anti the irrational and misplaced hatred you express towards others that colours your change plan, because the problems you see, the blame you place, is largely misplaced, and will result in forcing changes through that will make life worse for everyone as you try and punish those you see as the problem.

Jealousy is an ugly emotion that can consume people if they let it. It blinds you to the good things you have, to opportunities for change, and to the good you can do for others as an individual. Don't let it.

Why do you think it’s jealousy to want to correct what is clearly harmful, exploitative and unfair policy when it comes to a basic human need in a civilised society?

I’ve got a large house in the most expensive post code in a large city. I have very little to be jealous of housing wise. I can just see the injustice.

I agree material things aren’t everything in life, but a roof over your head and stability are far from simple material things, and most people are currently working in wage slavery which barely covers monthly rent for the profits of those who own multiple houses, this is a disgrace.

 

[Efour]

Why do you think it’s jealousy to want to correct what is clearly harmful, exploitative and unfair policy when it comes to a basic human need in a civilised society?

I’ve got a large house in the most expensive post code in a large city. I have very little to be jealous of housing wise. I can just see the injustice.

I agree material things aren’t everything in life, but a roof over your head and stability are far from simple material things, and most people are currently working in wage slavery which barely covers monthly rent for the profits of those who own multiple houses, this is a disgrace.

He was talking to FoxEye, he has quite the track record of woe is me, woe is my life, woe everything. He actually comes across more depressed than me which is actually quite the achievement.

You are part of the problem comrade. Champagne socialism is quite simply worse than anything. How many Foxeyes could you have living in your nice house? Why are you not opening all those extra rooms to the needy? Those poor wage slaves. Don't you feel sick at how hypocritical it all is? Perhaps you don't actually give a real **** like most people that are keeping their head above water.

I literally know nothing about you but id always assumed you come from some decent middleclass background, a good looking guy with a huge safety net, trust fund? A decent inheritance awaits. Possibly rebelled as a teenager, left home but still got pocket money to live until...
You chose an extremely outlandish career by most standards that pays financially, extremely well, the cost to your mental health well... That's up to you.
Most inequality people come from this background so its a fair assumption.

2022 is gonna be hilarious. Armchair Psychologist.

 

[cheesyboy]

You are part of the problem comrade. Champagne socialism is quite simply worse than anything. How many Foxeyes could you have living in your nice house? Why are you not opening all those extra rooms to the needy? Those poor wage slaves. Don't you feel sick at how hypocritical it all is? Perhaps you don't actually give a real **** like most people that are keeping their head above water.

So FoxEye's opinion is discounted as being the complaints of a failure, but Hurf's are discounted for them being too successful?

 

[Efour]

So FoxEye's opinion is discounted as being the complaints of a failure, but Hurf's are discounted for them being too successful?

Looks that way yes. Anyone can identify the problem, it is a problem and everyone here agrees. One way, for whatever reasons, housing prices in the UK are utterly ******, but Its your actions to help fix it that are important.

Owning a house isn't the be all to life unless you are from the UK.

Hes not homeless....Starving etc. If he wanted to he could move to another part of the UK and try again but its not gonna happen.. Its easier to just moan, i used to be the same, i know it when i see it.

Not everyone gets a break. Less people everyday seem to be getting a break.
If all you are gonna do is vote labour next election and hope everything is roses then good luck.....

The day people realise the only person that really cares about you is yourself, you start getting things done. Or dont and end up with 28000 posts on ocuk. <---

 

[hurfdurf]

He was talking to FoxEye, he has quite the track record of woe is me, woe is my life, woe everything. He actually comes across more depressed than me which is actually quite the achievement.

You are part of the problem comrade. Champagne socialism is quite simply worse than anything. How many Foxeyes could you have living in your nice house? Why are you not opening all those extra rooms to the needy? Those poor wage slaves. Don't you feel sick at how hypocritical it all is? Perhaps you don't actually give a real **** like most people that are keeping their head above water.

It’s not a black and white issue, it’s not full blown communism vs unfettered selfishness.

“When I was poor and complained about inequality they said I was bitter; now that I'm rich and I complain about inequality they say I'm a hypocrite. I'm beginning to think they just don't want to talk about inequality.”

Not only that, how do you know who and how I’m helping people?

Champaign socialists may be distasteful, but it’s far better than idiotically assuming things as well as doing nothing, at least they try and vote for policies to promote correcting things. Trying to switch things to individuals helping individuals when it’s government economic and social policy that will have the actual affect of righting wrongs is stupid or disingenuous.

 

[Dolph]

It’s not a black and white issue, it’s not full blown communism vs unfettered selfishness.

“When I was poor and complained about inequality they said I was bitter; now that I'm rich and I complain about inequality they say I'm a hypocrite. I'm beginning to think they just don't want to talk about inequality.”

Not only that, how do you know who and how I’m helping people?

Champaign socialists may be distasteful, but it’s far better than idiotically assuming things as well as doing nothing, at least they try and vote for policies to promote correcting things. Trying to switch things to individuals helping individuals when it’s government economic and social policy that will have the actual affect of righting wrongs is stupid or disingenuous.

As you say, how do you know who and how I'm helping people?

Arguing against bad, failed policies as a replacement for the status quo is not an argument for the status quo, it is an argument against flawed policy. Every society that has tried to force or engineer equality of outcome has failed, and when you are talking about focusing on reducing inequality, that's what you are advocating.

The focus should be on ensuring needs are met (which we often fail on as a country), ensuring that people have opportunities and the confidence to take them, rather than a focus on inequality, which is an outcome measure, not an opportunity measure. We are a long way off opportunities being available to all (I'm loathe to use the term equality of opportunity, as unless you remove children from their parents at birth, it's impossible to achieve), and everyone having the confidence to take them.

 

[hurfdurf]

As you say, how do you know who and how I'm helping people?

I wasn’t replying to you…

 

[Efour]

Not only that, how do you know who and how I’m helping people?

I literally know nothing about you but id always assumed

im a very pessimistic and jaded person. Ill nearly always assume the worst in people, after being here (jesus) 15 years.
I think im probably, usually, always in the right ball park though.
Most people are full of BS.

edit
Most isn't fair, a lot are.

 

[FoxEye]

Being happy and content with life isn't just about material things, nor is it about keeping up with a benchmark you obsess over. That is a route to anger and convincing yourself and others they are helpless and worthless. I am genuinely sorry you seem to have convinced yourself of this.

You also seem to think I wouldn't change the status quo, which isn't true. My argument against your position isn't anti change, but anti the irrational and misplaced hatred you express towards others that colours your change plan, because the problems you see, the blame you place, is largely misplaced, and will result in forcing changes through that will make life worse for everyone as you try and punish those you see as the problem.

Jealousy is an ugly emotion that can consume people if they let it. It blinds you to the good things you have, to opportunities for change, and to the good you can do for others as an individual. Don't let it.

Jealousy? Complete nonsense. Irrational hatred? Of whom?

I want change in policy, change in the ethics of our government, change in some people's general attitude. "I'm alright, Jack" is sadly what this country does best.

You think this is jealousy - that's nonsense. I don't care about Lamborghinis or yachts or mansions or any of that crap. It's not for me.

What we need to do - as I've said *hundreds* of times already, is cater for all budgets. We need modest housing for modest incomes. And not just in North Wales where there are no jobs for hundreds of miles

But what we *don't* need, is middle class (and above) people buying up the basic, modest, affordable housing, in order to rent it out. You'll find that 2/3 of former Council Houses are now in the private rental market.

And we don't need policies that prevent Local Authorities from building housing unless they sell what they already have (1:1, if a LGA builds a house, it is forced to sell one it owns).

The problem is a combination of Tory ideology (Council Housing being an affront to them) and middle-class people seeking to enhance their pension incomes with rent by building up a housing portfolio.

 

[hurfdurf]

im a very pessimistic and jaded person. Ill nearly always assume the worst in people, after being here (jesus) 15 years.
I think im probably, usually, always in the right ball park though.
Most people are full of BS.

edit
Most isn't fair, a lot are.

I would have thought you’d learn not to assume things after being here so long. I can generally tell peoples education levels but I’m often surprised by peoples backgrounds and current personal situations.

 

[FoxEye]

As you say, how do you know who and how I'm helping people?

Arguing against bad, failed policies as a replacement for the status quo is not an argument for the status quo, it is an argument against flawed policy. Every society that has tried to force or engineer equality of outcome has failed, and when you are talking about focusing on reducing inequality, that's what you are advocating.

The focus should be on ensuring needs are met (which we often fail on as a country), ensuring that people have opportunities and the confidence to take them, rather than a focus on inequality, which is an outcome measure, not an opportunity measure. We are a long way off opportunities being available to all (I'm loathe to use the term equality of opportunity, as unless you remove children from their parents at birth, it's impossible to achieve), and everyone having the confidence to take them.

Part of the problem is that every time somebody suggests the status quo is broken, you default to arguing against communism, as if that is the only alternative.

Which does make continuing these conversations a bit pointless, and dull.

"You don't like the housing market as it exists today? So you literally want to confiscate all property and hand it over to the proletariat?"

That's where we end up, every time, isn't it @Dolph.

And if you want to talk about failed policies - well, Thatcher's "Right to Buy" is the failed policy of our time, isn't it? One of the most destructive and backwards policies to ever see the light of day, driven purely by Tory ideology and a burning hatred for the welfare state.

 

[Dolph]

Part of the problem is that every time somebody suggests the status quo is broken, you default to arguing against communism, as if that is the only alternative.

Which does make continuing these conversations a bit pointless, and dull.

"You don't like the housing market as it exists today? So you literally want to confiscate all property and hand it over to the proletariat?"

That's where we end up, every time, isn't it @Dolph.

And if you want to talk about failed policies - well, Thatcher's "Right to Buy" is the failed policy of our time, isn't it? One of the most destructive and backwards policies to ever see the light of day, driven purely by Tory ideology and a burning hatred for the welfare state.

Right to buy is absolutely a failed policy, and I've long argued it was a stupid idea that should be abolished. (See this post from 2006 as an example)

The biggest way to do this (and a measure I support) would be to end the right to buy legislation that decimated social housing by making it totally economically unviable.

It's not a case of agree with you or support the status quo, your solutions won't work, because they are targetting a group you resent, rather than the cause of the problem, which is a supply and demand mismatch. Swapping properties from rental to purchase markets doesn't solve the demand problem, because the two markets are not independent of each other in the vast majority of locations.

 

[Dolph]

Jealousy? Complete nonsense. Irrational hatred? Of whom?

You have a massive problem towards those who have been successful and have accumulated wealth as a result, that you are blind to it doesn't make it less so. Most people with irrational hatreds don't believe they have them

I want change in policy, change in the ethics of our government, change in some people's general attitude. "I'm alright, Jack" is sadly what this country does best.

You think this is jealousy - that's nonsense. I don't care about Lamborghinis or yachts or mansions or any of that crap. It's not for me.

So all we need to do, in your eyes, is change the fundamentals of human nature? That's pretty simple I guess...

What we need to do - as I've said *hundreds* of times already, is cater for all budgets. We need modest housing for modest incomes. And not just in North Wales where there are no jobs for hundreds of miles

There is plenty, it's just not where you (or indeed anyone else) actually wants it to be. The choice then becomes build more in the areas where people want to live (which reduces the attractiveness of those areas in many cases), or regulate who can buy or rent given homes to reduce the market value (so you effectively end up with a two tier housing market similar to somewhere like Jersey).

We also need to address social housing, but that's a complicated thing, as it's really tricky to balance the need for subsidised accommodation with the desire for it while presenting social housing as a 'home'.

But what we *don't* need, is middle class (and above) people buying up the basic, modest, affordable housing, in order to rent it out. You'll find that 2/3 of former Council Houses are now in the private rental market.

It makes no real difference what the ownership status of property is when there simply isn't enough of it where people want to live. Both high purchase prices and high rental costs are indicators of constrained total supply.

And we don't need policies that prevent Local Authorities from building housing unless they sell what they already have (1:1, if a LGA builds a house, it is forced to sell one it owns).

Agreed, right to buy should be abolished and social housing reformed, along with planning regulations and the like.

The problem is a combination of Tory ideology (Council Housing being an affront to them) and middle-class people seeking to enhance their pension incomes with rent by building up a housing portfolio.

The actual problem is a lack of property, and systems and processes that are designed to ensure that remains the case. Your dislike of the tories and the successful may be satisfied by you pinning the problem on them, but it's not actually going to solve anything. Labour didn't change anything when they were in power, they actually stoked the property boom, and drove long term investement into property when they attacked pensions, but I don't blame them either, because fundamentally, the problem is that enough in the UK want high house prices through supply constraint to be able to continue to drive policies to support it.

The only solution that will actually make housing more accessible is to make more available where people want to live.

 

[Tony Edwards]

.

You have a massive problem towards those who have been successful and have accumulated wealth as a result, that you are blind to it doesn't make it less so. Most people with irrational hatreds don't believe they have them



So all we need to do, in your eyes, is change the fundamentals of human nature? That's pretty simple I guess...



There is plenty, it's just not where you (or indeed anyone else) actually wants it to be. The choice then becomes build more in the areas where people want to live (which reduces the attractiveness of those areas in many cases), or regulate who can buy or rent given homes to reduce the market value (so you effectively end up with a two tier housing market similar to somewhere like Jersey).

We also need to address social housing, but that's a complicated thing, as it's really tricky to balance the need for subsidised accommodation with the desire for it while presenting social housing as a 'home'.



It makes no real difference what the ownership status of property is when there simply isn't enough of it where people want to live. Both high purchase prices and high rental costs are indicators of constrained total supply.



Agreed, right to buy should be abolished and social housing reformed, along with planning regulations and the like.



The actual problem is a lack of property, and systems and processes that are designed to ensure that remains the case. Your dislike of the tories and the successful may be satisfied by you pinning the problem on them, but it's not actually going to solve anything. Labour didn't change anything when they were in power, they actually stoked the property boom, and drove long term investement into property when they attacked pensions, but I don't blame them either, because fundamentally, the problem is that enough in the UK want high house prices through supply constraint to be able to continue to drive policies to support it.

The only solution that will actually make housing more accessible is to make more available where people want to live.

You really do spout a load of guff in your desire to make your self centered ideology seem well founded and rational.

It is not against human nature to help others it is the other way round. The way you come across goes against human nature. If it was up to people like you we wouldnt have formed communites and probably would never have discovered fire or bothered making the wheel.

If I get this right. When you were working in McDonalds you would have liked some help from the government and even thought that it was their responsability of the government to provide but as soon as you dont need it any more you changed your mind.

And for the love of god will you stop acting as if paying taxes is for the little people as they are the only ones that need and use public services.

You always sound like you are asserting that the poor only have themself to blame for their troubles and should expect to be treated like crap until they make something of themself. You sound like Reese Mogg when he said the people of Grenfel only had themself to blame because they didnt use common sense instead of listening to the fire brigade.

 

[Fubsy]

Communities are based on mutual requirements. How do you think those early communities formed, developed and dealt with people that didn't contribute, were weak, stole, sick etc? The kindness you speak of is very much a modern aspect of human "nature". Then again, none of use have cave man twitter, ocuk or facebook with a sprinkle of Sky News live from the cave to prove any of this other than skulls and bones with evidence of blunt force trauma as CoD.

If the anarchists get their way we'd certainly see the caring side of us all. I have no faith in humans as a whole to be kind - I'd expect to have everything I own and care for stripped from me by someone more "needing" than I and I'd likely have to stand my ground as best I could until I was taken out.

 

[Tony Edwards]

Communities are based on mutual requirements. How do you think those early communities formed, developed and dealt with people that didn't contribute, were weak, stole, sick etc? The kindness you speak of is very much a modern aspect of human "nature". Then again, none of use have cave man twitter, ocuk or facebook with a sprinkle of Sky News live from the cave to prove any of this other than skulls and bones with evidence of blunt force trauma as CoD.

If the anarchists get their way we'd certainly see the caring side of us all. I have no faith in humans as a whole to be kind - I'd expect to have everything I own and care for stripped from me by someone more "needing" than I and I'd likely have to stand my ground as best I could until I was taken out.

So you think the only other side of not treating people like crap is anarchy? You really think it is just the people you see as anarchists that are asking for help for the poor and better public services and accommodation?

But you seem to be speaking against mutual requirements.

 

[Diddums]

The future is totally unsustainable, and something is going to give/break, in the next decade I would imagine.

And this is the exact reason I'm refusing to have kids. This planet is screwed, society is trying its best to kill itself, and we're just multiplying like a virus. I have thought very long and very hard about this and short of popping a few nukes or a virus to wipe out half the population, I can't think of a way for this planet to sustain us for much longer.

 

[Fubsy]

So you think the only other side of not treating people like crap is anarchy? You really think it is just the people you see as anarchists that are asking for help for the poor and better public services and accommodation?

People aren't directly treated like crap though are they? It's all in a controlled (arguable by who?!**) manner to give people the security against the true nature of humanity.

You are presenting the human race as a caring and gentle species by nature, when I'm saying they are not and it's folly to believe so.

There is also a fine line of people asking help for our poor and the sort of people that just want to tear down society to stick it to "the man".

**this is the point that humanity, in the west at least, needs to figure out collectively and work against to improve for the poor. However, they won't - as long as there are opportunities to get ahead and most of the time that's at the expense of others, it will happen and the "control" is maintained. This is our nature in the majority.

Edit: To have what you want would cost so much, to so many people that it will never happen. The scales must have tipped a long long time ago, we're on a race to the bottom and there is no way out, all you can hope to do is scurry to half way to the top before you expire. You won't find any hope from my posts in terms of economic fairness as I don't think it exists because we've willed it so over and over again through history.

 

[Tony Edwards]

People aren't directly treated like crap though are they? It's all in a controlled (arguable by who?!**) manner to give people the security against the true nature of humanity.

You are presenting the human race as a caring and gentle species by nature, when I'm saying they are not and it's folly to believe so.

There is also a fine line of people asking help for our poor and the sort of people that just want to tear down society to stick it to "the man".

**this is the point that humanity, in the west at least, needs to figure out collectively and work against to improve for the poor. However, they won't - as long as there are opportunities to get ahead and most of the time that's at the expense of others, it will happen and the "control" is maintained. This is our nature in the majority.

What you are descibing is the frog and the scorpion tale. With people like you thinking the only way forward is to be the scorpion.

 

[delta0]

One thing that worries me is the country being forced into more tax rises. We are already at record levels of tax and in the past this has triggered a brain drain where many people (including members of my family) left the country. The constant focus on retired voters and ignoring the working voters is dangerous. With labour traditionally focusing on the lower earners in society that has left a dangerous middle and higher earner chasm where pretty much all taxes are paid. It’s the one thing that would end my want to work in the UK. It’s already unbearably high amounts of tax vs other countries (not all obviously as there are many that are higher than the UK).