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@Gibbo I did take your advice seriously and you were right - plus I took a hard look at the likely running costs even with the Ferrari Power warranty and decided that the whole endeavour was a bust. F12s seem to have appreciated strongly to the point where they are out of reach for me plus as you say they are a bit spikey and hyperactive. I had FFS run the numbers on a gorgeous spec one in Leeds but while I could do it, it wouldn't be sensible and would affect my life in ways I don't want a car to. Portofino has the numbers more in my realm but is basically a California T facelift in a lot of ways. Totally gorgeous in the flesh when in the right colour but I think with my Ferrari itch I'll scratch it with a classic in a few years time, 40th birthday present maybe.

I've looked at the 570GT - the issue with the 570GT is that the GT exists. It is *so* much nicer inside and just better for relatively worry-free travels. The GT has the same sort of ride height as a saloon car with the lift up but otherwise sits quite high (for the type of car) compared to the 570GT. I've been out on drives where 570S/GT have been left for dead on cambered roads because of grounding, bucking etc means they can't actually drive the car properly. I don't want that sort of compromise in this car - I'd rather have a car with the edge taken off that I can stretch rather than always having to hold back to save the car. Basically, I never want to feel that I've taken the wrong car out, which happened frustratingly frequently when running two cars either side of the tourer/sports car divide.

I know buying a 2021 McLaren more or less no matter what the model has the potential to be fairly savage in depreciation but then so does the DB11. My rough estimation is that a £140k GT is going to depreciate about as much as a £140k DB11 AMR over the same period. You're right about 911 GT3 values being strong and they absolutely would be the depreciation-proof accountant-friendly purchase but I just can't. I have never liked the 911, I more than appreciate them from a technical/mechanical point of view but they do nothing for me in the feels - I don't covet them in the same way as I do pretty much any Ferrari, Aston, some McLarens, even the Merc AMG GTR holds more "want" for me than the 911. I know that's illogical but that's just being human, isn't it?

@Housey I went to Mercedes and got the usual abhorrent Mercedes dealer treatment. We went in to look at a brand new EQA for the mrs and then an AMG GTR. Wouldn't unlock even the EQA and even after demonstrating more than sufficient ability to buy both on the spot they didn't change their attitude. They offered to take our number and call us to make an appointment which of course they didn't call. I had a similar experience as an actual Mercedes owner years ago and vowed never to go back but gave them this one more chance and they blew it. I have many friends with near identical dealer experiences and that's killed my interest in the brand stone dead now. McLaren, Ferrari and Aston Martin were nothing like this at all, with each of them going out of their way to make me feel welcome. You would imagine those brands to be more like the Merc experience due to the sheer number of dreamers they must get but nope.


I get what your saying on Porsche, I think a 911 GT3 is a petrol heads supercar, but its not a super car it is just another 911 which are ten to a penny on the roads, as such to many as yourself they are not special at all, even when they have massive wings slapped on they simply to most are just a 911 or fancy beetle. So I do get that totally, just wanted to mention it because they can be forgot about, it is the car when you sit in it and drive it you want it, they drive so superior to pretty much anything on the road but for many people they simply don't have that feel good factor, its just a 911.

Ferrari dealers seem very friendly, they want to throw car keys at you, it is easy to spend hours at a Ferrari or Lamborghini dealer, its a case of sir let us make you some fancy coffee, now which cars do you want to go out and play in, their hospitality is superb. Ferrari "Power Warranty" is however somewhat poor, it covers very little on them, so oil leaks, fuel pumps, dampers all the stuff which can and does fail is not covered, generally the engines and DCT boxes are pretty reliable now. A lot of Ferrari owners, now myself included don't bother with warranty and just put the 3k in a pot each year to cover any potential bills for issues.

Have you considered a 488? It is not a car for me as I find them a bit numb as I far prefer the screaming NA engine of a 458 and its less grippier setup, but a 488 is one hell of a car and the prices have softened in the last year.

Just make sure you consider cost of ownership over say a three year period, I drove so many things when I was hunting, when I drove a 458 I fell in love as it was such an occasion to drive and every drive still is three years on and it has been reliable with zero issues. On bad roads it can bottom out, had it a couple of times in Scotland but I found the cure was to set the suspension to stiffest mode and then it was fine as the damping even in race is actually pretty good, but advantages of a mid-engine reasonably light car and all that. I paid 152k three years ago, retail on my car is still 140-150k and 458 values seem to move up more or less monthly now so in short it has cost me hardly anything to own it, as servicing has been free, insurance is under a grand a year so I just put petrol in it and now it does enjoy drinking but so does any super car or V8/V10/V12. When I got my 458 a Mclaren 720S was 210k starting price for cheapest on market in retail, those have dipped as low as 130k retail, so 80k depreciation versus around 10k for the Ferrari. The GT3's have also hardly moved in price over past three years, Lamborghini also pretty solid though not quite matching Ferrari or Porsche but Mclaren is a bit of a joke but if you buy right your laughing as a friend of a friend got into a 720S for like 127k, he purchased at right time as its now worth circa 140k retail.
 

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Yea, I never went near a Merc dealer to buy mine and I have found Mercedes dealers to be pretty shabby in the main. I don't know where you are based, but Redline cars up north are decent and always have interesting cars. I didn't buy form them, but they were accommodating and good to work with and I have a few friends who have had positive experiences with them. Tend to have good cars and lots of the cars you list. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face would be my advice, go find a decent one in an independent and drive it. I actually got Wolverhampton Mercedes to bring a GTR to my house to drive, only took a phone call but like you other dealers made me feel like a bin diver dreamer and I'm no dreamer. :cry:

Dealers, so often the point of failure. :mad:

Do you not take yours to Merc for service work etc? I'm usually keen to keep my cars inside the manufacturer's sphere as it helps preserve a sense of connection in terms of goodwill and also on resale it looks good to buyers. Paid off for me in the past but I know it is usually paying a significant premium to do so. I just don't want to even have to deal with either of my local Merc dealers for servicing!

I'm not prohibitively far from Redline and they've come up a number of times so I might have to give them a call and go up to meet them.

@Gibbo I've not considered the 488 in the same way that I've not considered the 720S, I just don't think I can meet the compromise on the storage capacity. That said, I have planned to do a bit of a test - get the mrs to 'pack' what she'd want to take on a two week trip and actually take that luggage to McLaren and prove to her it'll all go into the car. She largely doesn't give a damn what I buy but she does want us to enjoy it together without any friction around what we can do or not do with it. She's even more into road tripping around Europe than I am! Might as well try and get it into a 720S at the same time as if it fits into one of those it'll fit into anything...
 
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Do you not take yours to Merc for service work etc? I'm usually keen to keep my cars inside the manufacturer's sphere as it helps preserve a sense of connection in terms of goodwill and also on resale it looks good to buyers. Paid off for me in the past but I know it is usually paying a significant premium to do so. I just don't want to even have to deal with either of my local Merc dealers for servicing!

I'm not prohibitively far from Redline and they've come up a number of times so I might have to give them a call and go up to meet them.
I do have Mercedes service it and undertake warranty work. It is in with Macclesfield next week and I have a working relationship with them, they know what I expect and have been mainly decent. Sat Nav screen not working so that needs investigating, (my lost SD card issue is not related it seems). My local Mercedes dealer Stafford can't work in the car, they said use Stoke and I booked the car in. Drove in, drove straight out it was an utter shambles and will never see a car of mine to work on. Macclesfield seems ok. New site, good environment etc, but only as good as their last job etc.

Red line is worth a visit. Lots of good stuff, though no AMG GTR outside a black edition at over 400K

Loads of Macca, Aston, Porsche, Ferrari etc mind
 
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Do you not take yours to Merc for service work etc? I'm usually keen to keep my cars inside the manufacturer's sphere as it helps preserve a sense of connection in terms of goodwill and also on resale it looks good to buyers. Paid off for me in the past but I know it is usually paying a significant premium to do so. I just don't want to even have to deal with either of my local Merc dealers for servicing!

I'm not prohibitively far from Redline and they've come up a number of times so I might have to give them a call and go up to meet them.


Just drop then an email, follow up with a call and just be like I've got X amount budget wise and I've short listed the following and am hoping I could take a couple out, am sure they will let you take a couple of cars out. One word of warning however a lot of super cars are now fitted with Michelin Cup 2 tyres, so if your test driving this time of year, do make sure the road is bone dry otherwise your not going to be able to find much out about the car at all, my Exige is nervous and slow this time of year, so is a bit meh, but when it is dry its pretty savage and epic.
 
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Yea, Cup 2's in current weather and temps are going to make you think you have no grip. They come alive when dry and up to proper temps and all that slip slide stuff goes away but in current conditions sideways at every opportunity is the law.
 

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Just drop then an email, follow up with a call and just be like I've got X amount budget wise and I've short listed the following and am hoping I could take a couple out, am sure they will let you take a couple of cars out. One word of warning however a lot of super cars are now fitted with Michelin Cup 2 tyres, so if your test driving this time of year, do make sure the road is bone dry otherwise your not going to be able to find much out about the car at all, my Exige is nervous and slow this time of year, so is a bit meh, but when it is dry its pretty savage and epic.

I hit the lock stops on my drive out in the GT :D
 
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I now see the type of poster you are. While there's basically no point in continuing to discuss this with you, I would suggest that perhaps you shouldn't assume that just because a car works for you/your lifestyle it automatically means it will work for everybody else. Some people might consider two weeks out of a single carry-on bag to be a stretch too far, requiring a greater volume of luggage space and thus drawing them to, you know, GT cars with greater storage capacity.

No need to be like that, especially when you didn't read my post...

1 big & 2 cabin, or 4 cabin are surely enough for most people? Even my high maintenance ex was able to fit everything she wanted in there. One trip I fit a DJI Inspire 2 flight case behind the seats without any trouble... that surprised me.

And you get a noticeably improved vehicle in the process... better suspension, better handling, more powerful engine, better sound system, nicer interior... etc etc... all for basically the same price, last I looked...

Oddly, all of the GT cars I've had, have less-usable/smaller luggage space than the 720S.

Sooooo... perhaps you shouldn't incorrectly assume the intent of someone with relevant experience attempting to knowledge share.

If nothing more, at least take a look at a 720S... a friendly dealer won't be too upset if you take some empty luggage with you & see if it fits your needs. You'll be surprised & I doubt you'll regret it, even if it only confirms your decision.
 
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Dealers, so often the point of failure. :mad:

More often than not, I'd say. Yesterday I spoke to a dealer about a (fairly expensive) BMW AUC vehicle, the sales guy could not have been less interested, he knew nothing about the car and kept repeatedly asking me the same questions. I'd even sent him an email detailing the situation and pre-empting any potential queries, which he clearly hadn't read beyond the first line. He was abrupt and quite frankly rude. How do these people have jobs? At least their customer service centre called me to ask how things had gone, so I was more than happy to fill them in...
 
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Gotta buy what works for you, but I have to say that to me the Mclaren GT's just seem to look huge in the flesh, I was nosing around at one in Dick Lovett when I was there last and just thought it looked odd in someway like they had stuck to huge intakes on the sides.
Have you considered maybe trying to find a Mclaren 570S GT, I remember those had a lot more luggage space and the rear window was latched so would open up and they look just like a 570S so have nicer proportions.

As with all things Mclaren make sure you buy incredibly well, the depreciation can be crucifying as proven by current prices on 570S (87k) and 720S (130-150k), the last thing you want is to buy one and three years later its lost you in 50k in just depreciation or more.

I remember telling you a 599 is huge, so glad you tried one and found the same issue, if you have not tried an F12 though maybe give one a go as Ferrari did shrink the proportions down over the 599, just with an F12 the handling can be quite spikey, 812 improved a lot on this with more progressive at limit handling, the extra power was just Ferrari showing off and saying to its competitors we can make an NA V12 that kicks out more power than competitors V12's with turbos. Ferrari make the best V12's end of and the car around them, the engine is the highlight of car and makes them so special.

Maybe look at a Ferrari 488, the front frunk if it is same as my 458 (think it is) is well huge, we get two hard case suitcases in ours, full size and soft bags, plus there is then a shelf behind the seats to fit more stuff like additional soft bags or helmets. We did 10-11 day touring Scotland and 2500 miles in my 458, staying at different hotels every night and we had no issues and my passenger was my Mrs who brings a lot of luggage with her, typical women. I am sure the 488 has the same front frunk, it was only the Pista, Speciale and F8 that lost a considerable amount of luggage space due to the front air duct.

Otherwise I still think an Aston DB11 in the orange colour they do would make a superb GT car.

Also Porsches tend to have ample storage space, Boxster/Cayman have huge amounts of luggage space, but maybe not special enough and of course a 911 GT3 without the cage has lots of luggage space and they are pretty comfortable. Your looking at 150k cars, a 991.2 GT3 manual would easily handle your GT requirements, it has one other major advantage it will probably not depreciate a penny, has far lower running cost and a far superior warranty package.

Porsche Wilmslow have a gorgeous red 991.2 GT3 manual in stock at 146k as I've been eying it up, they don't have it advertised anywhere for some reason but it is in their used car showroom, I suspect they are not trying to sell it due to demand levels for said cars but at 146k it is also reasonably priced considering its a manual, if you want PDK then there is a few nice examples of same car knocking around at 130-135k and again won't lose you much money.

Problem with the 570GT is, the suspension is a little too soft... so even under relatively light cornering loads or alpine hairpins without pushing the car... the wheels constantly rub the arches and make you think you're grounding out.

Speaking of luggage space... 812 boot is utterly useless. The handling shrinks the car around you, but it feels really big/wide on the road... can't imagine what a 599 would be like, haven't been in one. But the engine... omg... the v12 is glorious!

Will echo your sentiment about 458/488... frunk is gigantic, by far the biggest of anything in its class.
 

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No need to be like that, especially when you didn't read my post...

1 big & 2 cabin, or 4 cabin are surely enough for most people? Even my high maintenance ex was able to fit everything she wanted in there. One trip I fit a DJI Inspire 2 flight case behind the seats without any trouble... that surprised me.

And you get a noticeably improved vehicle in the process... better suspension, better handling, more powerful engine, better sound system, nicer interior... etc etc... all for basically the same price, last I looked...

Oddly, all of the GT cars I've had, have less-usable/smaller luggage space than the 720S.

Sooooo... perhaps you shouldn't incorrectly assume the intent of someone with relevant experience attempting to knowledge share.

If nothing more, at least take a look at a 720S... a friendly dealer won't be too upset if you take some empty luggage with you & see if it fits your needs. You'll be surprised & I doubt you'll regret it, even if it only confirms your decision.

I spent about 3 hours at McLaren looking at the GT, they had three 720Ss there which I did look around so I'm not talking about the 720S from a position of book-only knowledge although I haven't done 30k km in one.

I also looked at their Senna GTR which was a) not for sale and b) massively beyond my means but absolutely incredible!!
 
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More often than not, I'd say. Yesterday I spoke to a dealer about a (fairly expensive) BMW AUC vehicle, the sales guy could not have been less interested, he knew nothing about the car and kept repeatedly asking me the same questions. I'd even sent him an email detailing the situation and pre-empting any potential queries, which he clearly hadn't read beyond the first line. He was abrupt and quite frankly rude. How do these people have jobs? At least their customer service centre called me to ask how things had gone, so I was more than happy to fill them in...
Derby were ok (for a change) and the chap up in Southport who got an order for little work have been fine. But Knights Stoke were again poor for me and yet again lost a sale because of it. Shame.
 
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Derby were ok (for a change) and the chap up in Southport who got an order for little work have been fine. But Knights Stoke were again poor for me and yet again lost a sale because of it. Shame.

I bought my current car from BMW Derby, they weren't too bad, a few issues but they resolved them satisfactorily in the end.
 
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@Gibbo I did take your advice seriously and you were right - plus I took a hard look at the likely running costs even with the Ferrari Power warranty and decided that the whole endeavour was a bust. F12s seem to have appreciated strongly to the point where they are out of reach for me plus as you say they are a bit spikey and hyperactive. I had FFS run the numbers on a gorgeous spec one in Leeds but while I could do it, it wouldn't be sensible and would affect my life in ways I don't want a car to. Portofino has the numbers more in my realm but is basically a California T facelift in a lot of ways. Totally gorgeous in the flesh when in the right colour but I think with my Ferrari itch I'll scratch it with a classic in a few years time, 40th birthday present maybe.

I've looked at the 570GT - the issue with the 570GT is that the GT exists. It is *so* much nicer inside and just better for relatively worry-free travels. The GT has the same sort of ride height as a saloon car with the lift up but otherwise sits quite high (for the type of car) compared to the 570GT. I've been out on drives where 570S/GT have been left for dead on cambered roads because of grounding, bucking etc means they can't actually drive the car properly. I don't want that sort of compromise in this car - I'd rather have a car with the edge taken off that I can stretch rather than always having to hold back to save the car. Basically, I never want to feel that I've taken the wrong car out, which happened frustratingly frequently when running two cars either side of the tourer/sports car divide.

I know buying a 2021 McLaren more or less no matter what the model has the potential to be fairly savage in depreciation but then so does the DB11. My rough estimation is that a £140k GT is going to depreciate about as much as a £140k DB11 AMR over the same period. You're right about 911 GT3 values being strong and they absolutely would be the depreciation-proof accountant-friendly purchase but I just can't. I have never liked the 911, I more than appreciate them from a technical/mechanical point of view but they do nothing for me in the feels - I don't covet them in the same way as I do pretty much any Ferrari, Aston, some McLarens, even the Merc AMG GTR holds more "want" for me than the 911. I know that's illogical but that's just being human, isn't it?

@Housey I went to Mercedes and got the usual abhorrent Mercedes dealer treatment. We went in to look at a brand new EQA for the mrs and then an AMG GTR. Wouldn't unlock even the EQA and even after demonstrating more than sufficient ability to buy both on the spot they didn't change their attitude. They offered to take our number and call us to make an appointment which of course they didn't call. I had a similar experience as an actual Mercedes owner years ago and vowed never to go back but gave them this one more chance and they blew it. I have many friends with near identical dealer experiences and that's killed my interest in the brand stone dead now. McLaren, Ferrari and Aston Martin were nothing like this at all, with each of them going out of their way to make me feel welcome. You would imagine those brands to be more like the Merc experience due to the sheer number of dreamers they must get but nope.

The GT is a big step up over the 570GT, you're right about that... they dialled out all of the big problems

DB11 is such a numb car for the driver... hated it... comfy for sure, but no steering feel at all

I had the same experience at Merc... even after making an appointment
 
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Problem with the 570GT is, the suspension is a little too soft... so even under relatively light cornering loads or alpine hairpins without pushing the car... the wheels constantly rub the arches and make you think you're grounding out.

Speaking of luggage space... 812 boot is utterly useless. The handling shrinks the car around you, but it feels really big/wide on the road... can't imagine what a 599 would be like, haven't been in one. But the engine... omg... the v12 is glorious!

Will echo your sentiment about 458/488... frunk is gigantic, by far the biggest of anything in its class.

Yep it is one of the reasons why managed to rack so many miles up in the 458, the front boot is gigantic and then there is ample room behind the seats too and I think 488 is same. It is the one thing my Mrs mentioned if you buy a Speciale we might not be able to do our longer road trips in it because the front boot is less than half the size.

It is also a major downfall for the RWD Huracans as they still put the AWD frunk in them so still limited cargo space.
 

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More often than not, I'd say. Yesterday I spoke to a dealer about a (fairly expensive) BMW AUC vehicle, the sales guy could not have been less interested, he knew nothing about the car and kept repeatedly asking me the same questions. I'd even sent him an email detailing the situation and pre-empting any potential queries, which he clearly hadn't read beyond the first line. He was abrupt and quite frankly rude. How do these people have jobs? At least their customer service centre called me to ask how things had gone, so I was more than happy to fill them in...

Snows in Portsmouth and Halliwell Jones in Chester have both proven to be absolutely excellent for me. Wouldn't recommend Williams in Liverpool or Manchester, both totally awful in my recent experience. Partridge in Chandlers Ford can get in the sea as well.
 
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I spent about 3 hours at McLaren looking at the GT, they had three 720Ss there which I did look around so I'm not talking about the 720S from a position of book-only knowledge although I haven't done 30k km in one.

I also looked at their Senna GTR which was a) not for sale and b) massively beyond my means but absolutely incredible!!

Just don't discount as yet... unless you're desperate for a set of golf clubs at the same time as a passenger, you'd be surprised what will fit in a 720S & at current pricing they're an absolute bargain.

Make sure you check what fits behind the seats and how easy you find it to get things in/out.

I'd love to play with a Senna GTR at some point... the road going version is amazing enough... I never expected a road car to be able to stop like a proper downforce race car.

Mentioning Sennas... funnily, I emailed my finance guy this morning to get costings on this:
image.png


Will depend what their GFV is, but should be able to get 1.9% financing for it.
 
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Yep it is one of the reasons why managed to rack so many miles up in the 458, the front boot is gigantic and then there is ample room behind the seats too and I think 488 is same. It is the one thing my Mrs mentioned if you buy a Speciale we might not be able to do our longer road trips in it because the front boot is less than half the size.

It is also a major downfall for the RWD Huracans as they still put the AWD frunk in them so still limited cargo space.
STO it is then!
 
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