What would you suggest instead then? As its clear that people are not going to change themselves...
German court rules circumcision is 'bodily harm'
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What would you suggest instead then? As its clear that people are not going to change themselves...
Indeed, as I said at the outset it should be the decision of the individual....however we do not change thousands of years of tradition and cultural practice overnight, and you do not change such entrenched attitudes by banning them outright.
So to be effective in maintaining and ensuring the welfare of the child remains our primary concern, we have to work toward changing people's attitudes, not necessarily by simply imposing ours on them.
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Yeah man, absolutely. On an international level, though, this is a very small change. Perhaps it will begin to change people's attitudes.
I think it shouldn't be done to children at all and should wait for adult consent (though for the Jews this would be an offensive rejection of bits of the book of Genesis at the end of the day there are many things in religious books which are illegal in some countries) but the legal position of this ruling means its not likely to last and this sort of thing really needs to go through a robust parliamentary debate and law making exercise if people want it to stick.
I do however think there is comparison in piercing the ears of very small babies and children, while I think young children can make a sort of informed choice about having their ears pierced, piercing the ears of babies / kids who don't actually understand what a piercing is as commonly happens in the gypsy community might not be on a par with the damage circumcision can cause and it may not be as permanent, but it still seems inappropriate to do anything to a child that have physical implications that are purely for cosmetic or religious reasons.
This is not to say ear piercing is like circumcision but I think parents should really think seriously about waiting until their children can really understand what is going on before subjecting them to this sort of thing.
This sort of law is undoubtedly going to cause a lot of problems in enforcement, its likely people will continue to practice it anyway; its hard to get rid of something simply by passing laws against it.
What is interesting is why the religious groups protesting about it don't mind protesting about female circumcision which is rightly illegal but which is also advocated in the Sunnah. Double standards really as you don't see Muslim leaders in Germany (well the moderate ones who would object to this) standing and protesting the need for female circumcision, so getting rid of one thing in a book is ok but another is bad. Those are the sort of double standards that cause problems in dealing with religions / the correctness of religious practice.
I do however think there is comparison in piercing the ears of very small babies and children, while I think young children can make a sort of informed choice about having their ears pierced, piercing the ears of babies / kids who don't actually understand what a piercing is as commonly happens in the gypsy community might not be on a par with the damage circumcision can cause and it may not be as permanent, but it still seems inappropriate to do anything to a child that have physical implications that are purely for cosmetic or religious reasons.
This is not to say ear piercing is like circumcision but I think parents should really think seriously about waiting until their children can really understand what is going on before subjecting them to this sort of thing.
This sort of law is undoubtedly going to cause a lot of problems in enforcement, its likely people will continue to practice it anyway; its hard to get rid of something simply by passing laws against it.
What is interesting is why the religious groups protesting about it don't mind protesting about female circumcision which is rightly illegal but which is also advocated in the Sunnah. Double standards really as you don't see Muslim leaders in Germany (well the moderate ones who would object to this) standing and protesting the need for female circumcision, so getting rid of one thing in a book is ok but another is bad. Those are the sort of double standards that cause problems in dealing with religions / the correctness of religious practice.
Well, that is not true...within Judaism there are groups who advocate the end of the practice of circumcision....attitudes can change and while it is true that attitudes as entrenched as these do not change quickly, it is also necessary to weigh the relative harm to the child when considering the potential consequences of any State imposition within a legal framework.
I suspect that the ruling will be overturned, however, If nothing else it has provoked discussion, which is the first and most important step in changing people's attitudes as you expose them to alternative views and arguments.
Quite, all the more reason to avoid knee jerk reactions that seek to impose one set of values over another without proper consideration of the relative consequences, particularly when children are concerned.
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Really? I hope they don't overturn it, it's long overdue in my opinion. It has indeed provoked discussion though....hopefully it will come into more people's awareness as a result.
I dont think it should be done to anyone until they are of age to decide for themself (adulthood). Same as I dont think children should be christened until they are of age to decide for themself whether they want to be or not.
I had to have mine done for medical reasons when I was about 4 years old. Lots of people talking about it not being as nice for sex etc. I've had this convo with the g/f and the only pro she can think of with a foreskin is at times it can penetrate easier. There is nothing else and she much prefers one without the extra skin lol. The rest written here is pretty much only what people have read. Unless there is someone here who has had sex who has had one and then had an op to remove it and can compare I dont think we can really argue on that one. I can see the logic that it would de-sensitise a little due to the tip being in constant contact with material but it doesnt stop anything functioning at all once aroused!
Regardless or all those arguements on here it simply shouldn't done.
I had to have mine done for medical reasons when I was about 4 years old. Lots of people talking about it not being as nice for sex etc. I've had this convo with the g/f and the only pro she can think of with a foreskin is at times it can penetrate easier. There is nothing else and she much prefers one without the extra skin lol. The rest written here is pretty much only what people have read. Unless there is someone here who has had sex who has had one and then had an op to remove it and can compare I dont think we can really argue on that one. I can see the logic that it would de-sensitise a little due to the tip being in constant contact with material but it doesnt stop anything functioning at all once aroused!
Regardless or all those arguements on here it simply shouldn't done.
The short answer is that it is part of the Hebrew Bible, and the Abrahamic covenant or agreement between God and Abraham....one of the covenants was the Brit Milah or Covenant of Circumcision as a symbol or mark of the everlasting covenant that ensured Abrahams people's primacy.
It is pretty fundamental to the Jewish Faith, which is why simply banning it will not stop the practice, but drive it underground or abroad and therefore potentially increasing the relative risk of harm to the children involved.
We need to be careful as the welfare of the children should be our primary concern.
Soldato
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I would expect it to just drive the drive the barbaric practice underground, how is the government to police it stop and search Jewish/Muslim boys to see if they have a foreskin?
I think it is currently done by the local imam anyway isn't it?
So whats the difference, he will still do it.
This way thought, when child grows up, chap can be done for multitation if kid ends up deciding he didn't want it done.
Somehow I doubt if Allah will care if the child gets chopped later in life or early in life. Germany isn't a sandy desert where having a sweaty ******* might lead to disease due to lack of sanitation and clean water. That is what the practice was for in the first place, its not really required anymore given advances in society.
Soldato
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Well they don't do that bit of it anymore, anywhere on the planet, in theory. So I am sure they will cope with losing out on the chopping bit of it too.
First post in this thread, and I don't want to jump into any pointless debates about religion or whatever;
I was circumcised when I was a kid, 90% of my mates were also circumcised as a kid (not all Muslim), and 2% of my friends were forced into a circumcision when they were 9/10. 100% of them are happy and/or glad they've had a circumcision, including me.
When I look at my penis, I don't think "**** I've lost my foreskin", I've never thought that even once in my whole life. I've not once thought I've been "mutilated".
What a ridiculous word anyway, just used to incite hate toward circumcision. According to a popular online dictionary; Mutilation is to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part. Severing an arm is mutilation, chopping off a thumb is mutilation, slicing off a piece of overhanging skin from your penile shaft is not.
Honestly, I don't know what magical essentials all your foreskins provide, maybe you can enlighten me on that, now I won't go into every detail but sufficed to say I can still achieve boner. Maybe if you foreskin lovers can provide details of what functions yo can perform with your foreskins I might change my opinion.
I was circumcised when I was a kid, 90% of my mates were also circumcised as a kid (not all Muslim), and 2% of my friends were forced into a circumcision when they were 9/10. 100% of them are happy and/or glad they've had a circumcision, including me.
When I look at my penis, I don't think "**** I've lost my foreskin", I've never thought that even once in my whole life. I've not once thought I've been "mutilated".
What a ridiculous word anyway, just used to incite hate toward circumcision. According to a popular online dictionary; Mutilation is to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part. Severing an arm is mutilation, chopping off a thumb is mutilation, slicing off a piece of overhanging skin from your penile shaft is not.
Honestly, I don't know what magical essentials all your foreskins provide, maybe you can enlighten me on that, now I won't go into every detail but sufficed to say I can still achieve boner. Maybe if you foreskin lovers can provide details of what functions yo can perform with your foreskins I might change my opinion.
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When my wee one was born. I did notice signs in the maternity ward stating catagorically that the hospital will not perform circumsision unless a pediatrician actually deems it is necesary.
Just think its worth noting, I live in an area with a very high percentage of muslim people, may be why the sign was needed.
Maybe if you foreskin lovers can provide details of what functions yo can perform with your foreskins I might change my opinion.
Easier masturbation
That is immaterial, as it is referring to their being no excuse rather than it being a condition.
however there are reform Jews who have opposing views, specifically that it is a not fundamental to their current interpretation of their scripture. There were significant movements as long ago as the 18th Century to abolish the practice, but they were largely overruled by the mainstream.
Absolutely, it is not uncontroversial within the medical profession in UK either, this is an interesting read on the law and ethics side from the BMA.
http://jme.bmj.com/content/30/3/259.full
So you would be ok with a religion having a decree that earlobes should be chopped off of children? Technically that isn't mutilation as per the above.
This is completely anecdotal, but all my female friends agree that sex with a guy with a foreskin feels nice than a cut dude, the latter feeling more *****-like.