14th Gen "Raptor Lake Refresh"

[Dave2150]

This is what i'm worried about. in Q4 2021 Intel had 37% operating margins ($3.8 Billion) on client products, that's stuff you and me would buy.
Compare that to Q4 2022, 11% operating margins ($0.7 Billion)
Yes that is as bad as it looks.

Intel better hope 14th gen is something special. I don't see how it can compete with Zen4X3D based on what we know so far.

 

[Dave2150]

I remember seeing the refresh on this, From what I can tell it's an actual Intel roadmap.



Either way I'll be holding out for Lunarlake if Meteorlake arrives this year, I'd like a fairly hefty CPU perf jump.

Hmm, strange that things have changed so much then. That clearly shows Raptor Lake refresh for Q3, Q4 2023. No mention of Meteor Lake at all there.

 

[Dave2150]

E cores are here to stay it seems. Intel have a good partnership with Microsoft, ensuring the scheduler is aware and ready to take advantage of the E cores.

Hope AMD get the same treatment from Microsoft with the Zen4 X3D chips (scheduler needs to know which CCX has the extra L3 cache etc)

 

[Dave2150]

Intel Meteor Lake-S desktop CPUs to feature 20 PCIe Gen5 lanes, Z890 platform to support WiFi-7 - VideoCardz.com

Intel Meteor Lake desktop platform with more PCIe lanes With rumors about the cancellation of the Meteor Lake-S desktop series, one must not forget that the platform specs must have been already shared with certain Intel partners. This does not confirm or debunk what will happen to the next-gen...

videocardz.com

Intel Meteor Lake-S desktop CPUs to feature 20 PCIe Gen5 lanes, Z890 platform to support WiFi-7​

Z870 launch date rumoured as Q2 2024 - if true AMD should have the gaming performance crown for a very long time with Zen4 X3D.

 

[Dave2150]

Be interesting to see how Intel/AMD perform on the same process node. AMD only seem to be able to compete/beat Intel if they're ahead at least one node.

 

[Dave2150]

I think the main thing is still transistor density. I also think the first version of the Intel 4 process will do well in power efficiency and base clock rates.

It's likely Meteorlake/Arrow Lake will be using TSMC 3nm. If that's true, they'll be a node ahead of Zen4.

I don't think it's been confirmed what process Zen5 will be using yet?

 

[Dave2150]

MTL was already confirmed to use 'Intel 4'. Arrow Lake is definitely going to be 20A (so 2nm).

TSMC is producing the iGPUs for these chips (process is N3).

Seems plans have changed, hence new rumors of Intel using TSMC 3nm for CPU tiles.

 

[Dave2150]

So basically what's been known for a few months now, Meteorlake either cancelled or moved into Q1/2 of next year with a Raptorlake refresh happening in Q3 this year. Will still be interesting to see the refresh IMO.

Don't think Raptor Lake refresh will go ahead - what would they call it, 13th.5 gen? It would need ~100W more to get any noticeable increase, which would give them even worse PR over the 13900KS.

I think we'll just see big price cuts from Intel instead, as Zen4 X3D is just too good for gaming.

 

[Dave2150]

Arguably Intel doesn't really need a new generation of desktop CPUs this year, given that AMD's X3D CPUs seem to only be slightly faster than the 13900K in some games, and generally a little slower in general performance with or without vcache. Considering that Intel hasn't announced any plans for this year, not releasing anything then cutting prices on the 13th gen does seem quite likely, and shouldn't be a problem. Presumably, Meteor Lake CPUs for laptops will still be able to launch this year.

AMD hasn't got any other new CPUs coming until late 2024, so Intel can afford to delay a new platform and Meteor Lake on desktops until next year. It seems quite unlikely that Intel would invest a lot of money into the Intel 4 process and new foundries, then choose to only use this process for mobile processors.

it would be weird if Intel was able to launch Emerald Rapids server processors (Intel 7) at the end of the year, then Granite Rapids (Intel 3 process) in late 2024, but then no Intel 4 desktop based CPUs in the same year.

Server roadmap:

There's also a series of E-core only server CPUs fabbed with Intel 3:

Sierra Forest - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It seems inconceivable that Intel wouldn't have a new fab process (of their own design) in desktop CPUs by Q4 2024, ready to go up against Zen 5.

When you consider the gaming power usage of the 13900k vs 7950X3D (and 7800X3D) it shows the urgency that Intel need 14th gen. We're talking 3 times the power draw in games, and even more in productivity.

With electricity prices being what they are, this is a HUGE issue which Intel are likely furious about.

 

[Dave2150]

In games, I agree, the 13900K is a pig. In productivity, no, it's perfectly fine, great I'd even say. Nobody, and I mean nobody, and I mean ABSOLUTELY nobody will be running a 13900k power unlimited at hour long multithreaded workloads. That would be just stupid. When power limited to sane levels it's competing with the 7950x. It loses mostly, in heavy mt workloads, but not by a lot, and it wins mostly in lighter threaded workloads. So it's a wash. Now quoting reviews that run cbr23 or blender with unlimited power is just borderline trolling.

For productivity, The 13900k has monstrous power consumption compared to Zen4 in general. Intel uses over double the power in most productivity applications. There are many reviews with proof of this, here's one from Techpowerup:



Intel's 14th generation really needs to achieve parity with Zen4/Zen5, as electricity prices mean this is a real factor in purchasing decisions for consumers and especially business going forward.

 

[Dave2150]

And you just did exactly what I claimed you were going to. Posted mt workloads with unlimited power... What professional runs 10 hour renders at unlimited power dude? Nobody.

Anyways, this is a lost cause, people have abandoned reason for clickbaits, whateva.

That graph is stock, so not unlimited power.

There are multiple independent reviews that all show the 12900k, 13900k to have massive power draw in productivity benchmarks. Zen4 is much more efficient. You're completely deluded if you can't see this.

With Zen4X3D, we now also see Intel using 3 times as much power in games.

 

[Dave2150]

Those numbers are with unlimited power.

Efficiency is measured at iso power. Period. Everything else is just silly. Else you HAVE to admit that the 13900t is much more efficient than the 7950x. Because out of the box, it is, a LOT more efficient. So if you want to be honest and pretend you only care about out of the box efficiency, the rank goes 13900t > 13700t >12900t> 13900 > 13700> 7950x3d > 12900 > 7950x.

As you can see, almost a complete Intel domination in out of the box efficiency.

Those numbers are stock, which is not unlimited power. I'll not reply further as you seem to be trolling - it's clear from multiple reviews than Zen4 is much more power efficient that Raptor Lake. In productivity and especially in games.

AMD also holds the gaming performance crown with the 7950X3D, for those interested in games.

 

[Dave2150]

Detailed Intel 15th gen Arrow Lake leak suggests massive 20% IPC uplift over Meteor Lake alongside "large" efficiency improvements

The latest information dump about Intel’s 15th gen “Arrow Lake” CPUs comes from serial leaker RedGamingTech. The leaker reports impressive IPC gains for Arrow Lake’s P-cores as well as huge efficiency improvements. Confirming previous reports, the leaker also maintains that both the 14th gen...

www.notebookcheck.net

Further news, this time Arrow Lake being referred to as 15th gen. Seeming more and more likely that 14th gen will be skipped on desktop, though time will tell.

 

[Dave2150]

No mention of Raptor Lake refresh on Intel's latest roadmap



Zen4 X3D will dominate for a long time IMO

 

[Dave2150]

Intel’s 2024 Arrow Lake-S desktop CPUs to feature up to 24 cores and support DDR5-6400 memory​

Intel's 2024 Arrow Lake-S desktop CPUs to feature up to 24 cores and support DDR5-6400 memory - VideoCardz.com

Intel 14th Gen Core Series rumors Intel is renaming and shifting its next-gen desktop product stack, claims a new rumor from Benchlife. A rumor alleges that Intel might have changed its plans for the Meteor Lake-S CPU architecture. The product which was expected between late 2023 and early 2024...

videocardz.com

There may have been some changes in Intel’s product planning for desktop computers. The previously rumored Meteor Lake-S, which was expected to launch in the first half of 2024, may be renamed Arrow Lake-S and paired with the Intel 800 series chipset. Both Meteor Lake-S and Arrow Lake-S use the Intel LGA 1851 socket. According to the source, Arrow Lake-S will maintain a maximum 8P+16E core configuration, while the 6P+16E configuration for MTL-S will be canceled.

— Benchlife

Intel sticking with 8P & 16E, and also potentially cancelling Meteor Lake. Perhaps they simulated Arrow Lake vs Zen4 X3D and gathered it was a pointless releasing it?

 

[Dave2150]

Before arrow lake, Raptor lake refresh will arrive in August 2023 according to Intel slides

Intel Raptor Lake Refresh Desktop CPUs Rumored To Launch In August 2023

Intel's Raptor Lake refresh desktop CPUs which were recently leaked are now rumored to launch in the third quarter of 2023.

wccftech.com

Really don't see many opportunities to refresh Raptor Lake - without having a 200W TDP chip, that consumes 450w+ in all core workloads.

 

[Dave2150]

I feel like 14th gen and 15th gen for intel are going to be monstrous, every year the leap in performance seems to be very noteworthy and it keeps making me hold off from upgrading

Intel need huge architectural and process advantages to be worth buying over Zen4X3D, I don't see how they can do all that by 14th gen. They'll be hard pressed to match Zen4 energy efficiency, yet alone beat it on performance at the same time.

Intel's only chance is Zen5 being late, or being another bulldozer, both of which seem very unlikely.

Hopefully they do compete though, can't have AMD with no competition for years, that's not good for the consumer.

 

[Dave2150]

Maybe not everyone wants the X3D chips that mostly only really benefit gaming, and are hit & miss there too.

How do you manage to come out with such rubbish, it obviously makes no difference which side you are on.

I'm not on any side, I own and use both. Currently have a 13900k and 7950X3D, one in my main gaming rig (7950X3D) and one in my VR rig, which is in another room due to room scale needing a large empty space (13900k).

Both great CPU's, though Zen4X3D is overall faster in the games I play, while using HALF the power.

 

[Dave2150]

Intels 13th gen performance has been very competitive has it not? the top end is on par, if not beats the top end 4x3d chips and even the mid tier ones like the 13600 is very good bang for buck

At the highend, the 7950x3d beats the 13900k/ks in games, while consuming half the power. IMO that's not competitive, especially given the price of electricity these days. Zen4x3d = obvious choice.

At the low/medium end, Intel is currently better value, due to DDR4, z690 motherboard prices and core counts of the i5.

 

[Dave2150]

Upcoming Intel Raptor Lake Refresh should still be part of the 13th Gen Core series​

Upcoming Intel Raptor Lake Refresh should to be part of the 14th Gen Core series - VideoCardz.com

Intel Meteor Lake part of the 14 Gen core series The documents that had been leaked before did not fully describe how Intel would name its consumer CPU products. However, the newly shared data may now explain what will happen with the Core series in the near future. A new chart for OpenVPL...

videocardz.com