20 Seasons of the Premier League

Match: Liverpool 4 - 4 Arsenal
Goal: Cantona
Celebration: klinsman (Fowler though if it was option)
Save: Hart vs Liverpool
Team:

---------------Schmeichel---------------
Dixon--Desailly--Vidic--Le saux
Mcmanaman--Scholes--Le tissier--Pires
---------Fowler--Henry---------
 
BaZ87 said:
Who was better than him then Loki?
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Denis Irwin by a country mile.

Could he defend - Check

Could he attack - Check

Could he Score Goals - Check

Could he play LB & RB - Check

Ashley Cole really doesn't stack up when you take into account all of the above. In fact when at Arsenal, as a defender, he was probably one of the worst defenders in the league. When playing for England until the last three years, his positional sense was atrocious.

Added to the fact that Ashley Cole is a little rat who I would never tire of punching in the face. Personal feelings aside, lack of quality left footed defenders does not make Ashley Cole ' The Best LB in xx Years'
 
It looks like you misunderstood my post. If you read my post again you'll see that I said that Cole has been the best LB in the league more or less since he established himself in the Arsenal side. In other words what I said was that since ~2002, Cole's been the best LB in the League. Although Irwin played for a season or so beyond then, he was well past his best by that point and not as good then as Cole was.

Regarding your opinion of Cole in general, I think you're being very harsh. Imo he's not just been the best LB over the last 10 years, he's been the best fullback and you could probably say he's been the best defender over that time. I massively disagree with what you've said about the defensive side of his game; he's always been a great defender but that side of his game got overshadowed by the attacking side of his game during his time at Arsenal.

He is a **** though.
 
He's being incredibly harsh; in fact to label him "probably one of the worst defenders in the league" he has lost all credibility on the issue.

I can understand people rating player X over Cole, or saying he is overrated, but to come out with a line like that is quite staggering. I still remember the Euro2004 game vs Portugal where he had Ronaldo in his pocket for 120mins (actually it was a bit less than that, Ronaldo had to switch sides to go up against an easier fullback at times during the game).
 
HangTime said:
He's being incredibly harsh; in fact to label him "probably one of the worst defenders in the league" he has lost all credibility on the issue.

I can understand people rating player X over Cole, or saying he is overrated, but to come out with a line like that is quite staggering. I still remember the Euro2004 game vs Portugal where he had Ronaldo in his pocket for 120mins.
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Still remember him being in Valencia's pocket t'other game V Manchester United. What's your point on that?
 
The point was that he clearly stated "when at Arsenal, as a defender, he was probably one of the worst defenders in the league. When playing for England until the last three years
, his positional sense was atrocious."

The game against MU you mention (which I agree Valencia destroyed him in and have posted as such here in the past) was neither for England during the past 3 years, nor when he was at Arsenal (as the game I cited was).... What's your point on that?
 
HangTime said:
The point was that he clearly stated "when at Arsenal, as a defender, he was probably one of the worst defenders in the league. When playing for England until the last three years
, his positional sense was atrocious."

The game against MU you mention (which I agree Valencia destroyed him in and have posted as such here in the past) was neither for England during the past 3 years, nor when he was at Arsenal (as the game I cited was).... What's your point on that?
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I had no idea we were working with such time constraints. It almost sounds like your basis, or rather putting him in the eleven and justifying it with one performance, of which I can highlight a performance were he was woeful.

Baz was talking over a period of 10 years? You're just doing three? C'mon.
 
The time constraints were those imposed by the person sticking the boot into Cole, not me :)

I haven't commented on whether he should be in the XI or not (hence why I said I could understand people not rating him), I'm just responding to the claims about what a terrible defender he was during the period in question.
 
HangTime said:
The time constraints were those imposed by the person sticking the boot into Cole, not me :)

I haven't commented on whether he should be in the XI or not (hence why I said I could understand people not rating him), I'm just responding to the claims about what a terrible defender he was during the period in question.
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He was though, his defensive work came on leaps and bounds towards the end of his Arsenal career and at Chelsea. I wouldn't call him 'probably one of the worst defenders in the league'

No, his constraints were at Arsenal; 98-06 and England from 2001 - 2011, if we are being picky ;)

I've not said either way my opinion on it, but found it funny how quick you were to jump to his defensive, and justify it with one stand out game.
 
I think there was a period when Cole was at Arsenal that his defensive ability could be questioned and I remember the first game he faced an 18 year old Ronaldo in the famous 0-0 between United and Arsenal and Ronaldo tore him a new one that day but the Euro 2004 game really was a turning point for him defensively.

Personally I put Cole in my team at LB because of the longevity of the man, much like the reason why I suspect many have put Neville in at RB, on a season by season basis though Cole has very rarely ever been the best in the league IMO. To expand I'd say;

11/12 - Enrique? Baines?
10/11 - Baines
09/10 - Cole
08/09 - Evra
07/08 - Evra (incidentally this was the season the question was who was the best out of Evra and Clichy)
06/07 - Evra
05/06 - Heinze
01-05 - Cole

EDIT: Not that many take much notice of the PFA team of the year but that almost reflect the above also.
 
Surely "England until the last 3 years" means up to 2009 not 2011?
Regardless I just don't like sweeping OTT statements like that (occasionally I'm guilty of them myself) that's why I leapt to his defence, as distasteful as I find him as a person (based on what I see in the media at least).

Happy to forget the standout game, it was just an example of a MOTM performance from allegedly one of the worst defenders in the league during that time that stood in my memory, he's had more than one great game and more than one bad game during the period in question. That game certainly isn't my only justification for viewing him as not being one of the worst.

Anyway going back on topic the issue of longeivity has reared it's head again, personally I do tend to give a weighting for that, others don't, and I can see both sides of the argument. When it comes to a team selected over a 20 year period, for me personally, I'd be wanting a player to have had at least 3 good seasons (preferably a lot more), which basically means I discount the likes of Silva (for the time being at least).

Out of interest I'd be interested to hear what positions people found hardest to choose in, for me it was central midfield as (Petit aside) the competition seemed very strong there. Most people probably pick 2 from Scholes, Keane and Vieira but it feels almost a shame having to overlook the talents of Fabregas and sheer consistency of Lampard for example.
 
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It's funny because I think Baz had a valid point re; Irwin, did he play his 'best' football in the Premier League? Whereas you might look back at him (like many do with other players) with rose tinted spectacles, you don't see how poor he was at the end of his career, or how poor at the start, you remember him as the player he was at his peak.
 
HangTime said:
Surely "England until the last 3 years" means up to 2009 not 2011?
Regardless I just don't like sweeping OTT statements like that (occasionally I'm guilty of them myself) that's why I leapt to his defence, as distasteful as I find him as a person (based on what I see in the media at least).

Happy to forget the standout game, it was just an example of a MOTM performance from allegedly one of the worst defenders in the league during that time that stood in my memory, he's had more than one great game and more than one bad game during the period in question. That game certainly isn't my only justification for viewing him as not being one of the worst.
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Yeah, sorry I'm in 2014 on Fm and I'm in the zone on that, ha.
 
Tummy said:
It's funny because I think Baz had a valid point re; Irwin, did he play his 'best' football in the Premier League?
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I didn't really make any point about Irwin, I was just clearly up a misunderstanding for Loki. The start of Cole's career more or less coincided with the end of Irwin's.

On what you've asked about Irwin though, I'm pretty sure the main part of his career and his best years were in the Premier League. Whether he was better than Cole? I'm not really old enough to remember watching enough of him during his prime to comment, although one of my earliest footballing memories was the Liverpool 3-3 Utd game where he bent a free-kick into the top corner. Come to think of it, that game should be an option for the game of the Premier League.

edit: And on Tom's year by year best LB list. Cole was better than Heinze, Evra, Baines and has been the best LB again this year.
 
BaZ87 said:
I didn't really make any point about Irwin, I was just clearly up a misunderstanding for Loki. The start of Cole's career more or less coincided with the end of Irwin's.

On what you've asked about Irwin though, I'm pretty sure the main part of his career and his best years were in the Premier League. Whether he was better than Cole? I'm not really old enough to remember watching enough of him during his prime to comment, although one of my earliest footballing memories was the Liverpool 3-3 Utd game where he bent a free-kick into the top corner. Come to think of it, that game should be an option for the game of the Premier League.
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Ohhh, Then I thought you were making the point that certain players played their best football outside of the Premier League.

Still it's a valid point.

What's your 11? It's a shame you can't pick a bench :(
 
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