84 Confirmed dead after another apparent terrorism attack in Nice, France,

Soldato
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Ideally our entire foreign policy, modelled strongly on US interests and our representation of those in Europe and the Middle East, could do with a rewrite for today, not half a century back. Our recent and not so recent interventions and state-building efforts also leave much to criticise in terms of implementation, cultural sensitivity and effectiveness; and the effect this had on subsequent asymmetric warfare and terrorism blooming as a present threat. But we cannot change the past, we have to deal with the present as it is now, and this often includes the individuals we propped up or put in power.

There's a sliver of credibility to the Foreign Office thinking on this matter however: at present we gain something from several regional players above and beyond the costs of their meddling, poor economic policies and human rights record (though, glaringly, they are very oblique on the point, so I suspect it comes down to money, intelligence and strategic location); if we destabilise, replace or disengage from these regimes -- how will they evolve, and what risk will the power filling the vacuum pose? Handing these states over to death cults like ISIS, or to sphere's of influence of wounded powers like Russia, will be a mistake.

Furthermore, in a globally-connected world, whatever action we do take propagates back to us; still, the economic and cultural route of an alternative sate model I alluded to earlier is powerful, and is still the best tool we have to help countries choose reform over autocracy, violence and repression, whatever the starting ideology. If better alternatives than destruction of human rights, religious persecution or armed intervention emerge, I'll be the first to let everyone know!



I also agree that we should not renege on providing a balanced and open forum for debate, letting people engage without fear and having the resources to implement meaningful community action. Although I do despair that out of however many vocal critics of Islam, atheism, 'modern values', political correctness, Liberalism, Christianity, or what have you, few have actually informed opinions or have read anything they refer to. Fact free arguments based solely on fear are fictitious and nobody gains anything from them, whilst social cohesion falters as a result.

Nonetheless, what's more of a concern is the recent use of ideology by demagogues and extremists of a different persuasion as proxy to attack the people behind Islam as an undifferentiated group; offering crude, simplistic solutions to complex problems of culture, mental health, society, economy and identity. This cannot be allowed to stand or be accepted as mainstream political discourse; arguments such as 'there's something inherently violent and wrong about X people' are racist to the core, and they do not address any of the social or religious issues raised, or help people who attempt meaningful reform.

Raoh likes this post. Same about a brand of extreme liberalism having a very (if not fundamental) effect on cohesion.
 
Caporegime
Joined
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There's a sliver of credibility to the Foreign Office thinking on this matter however: at present we gain something from several regional players above and beyond the costs of their meddling, poor economic policies and human rights record (though, glaringly, they are very oblique on the point, so I suspect it comes down to money, intelligence and strategic location); if we destabilise, replace or disengage from these regimes -- how will they evolve, and what risk will the power filling the vacuum pose? Handing these states over to death cults like ISIS, or to sphere's of influence of wounded powers like Russia, will be a mistake.

Yup that last bit is probably a major driver of it and why we'll probably still be desperate to try to keep Turkey on side in spite of the recent Erdogan actions. Yet Iran (although also an exporter of Terrorism, though perhaps to a lesser extent) is a much more tolerant society than Saudi Arabia, though thanks to issues in the 80s shaping US foreign policy and Iran's links to Hezbollah they're the pariah state and Saudi is an Ally. Saudi bombing campaign in Yemen then gets support not because the Iranian backed side is carrying out large scale atrocities but rather simply because Saudi is our buddy.

Nonetheless, what's more of a concern is the recent use of ideology by demagogues and extremists of a different persuasion as proxy to attack the people behind Islam as an undifferentiated group; offering crude, simplistic solutions to complex problems of culture, mental health, society, economy and identity. This cannot be allowed to stand or be accepted as mainstream political discourse; arguments such as 'there's something inherently violent and wrong about X people' are racist to the core, and they do not address any of the social or religious issues raised, or help people who attempt meaningful reform.

Agreed and that is perhaps why mainstream politicians are afraid of coming over as too critical or providing anything that could be construed as ammunition for these groups - but that has lead to the situation where we get the usual statements of how this has 'nothing to do with Islam' when it would perhaps be better if they felt more confident in taking a line more along the line's of Maajid Nawaz which is to say that actually there is a problem with Islam today here are some of the issues that we would like to see addressed
 
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