9yr old attacked because her daddy is a cop

Soldato
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I think the Winsor report is broadly speaking a significant amount of progress, I can understand why existing police don't want their overtime taken away, but if the police was such a bad job then there wouldn't be masses of people trying to get in on it. Same as teaching.

What's wrong with his proposals? I'm sure I saw him on Newsnight, a little whilst back... what he said seemed entirely reasonable :o.

Go read the reports then make comment:

http://review.police.uk/part-one-report/

http://review.police.uk/publications/part-2-report/
 
Soldato
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I have read them. It makes sense to me to understand the proposals that are being put in place which, according to reports, the organisation involved in law and order are so against as this may affect the service provided. I also know cops.

The proposals are very divisive. They don't just get rid of overtime (which is being adjusted, not abolished) but have some further pretty outrageous proposals which will result in multi-teirs of cops all on differing salaries doing the same job through freezing or abolishing certain pay increments. Increments that were guaranteed at signup to joining.

Another example (which has not been passed yet) is for cops who get injured during their job having their pay reduced in the first instance (after 1 year) and can then ultimately be "made redundant" (after 2 years)!!! You really want cops to be in a position where they stand back from any danger in case they end up injured and ultimately sacked?

Some of the proposals are fine but others are outrageous. Funnily enough the outrageous ones will likely pass as Winsor is using the old Tory tactic of "divide and conquer" for the police workforce.
 
Man of Honour
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Fair enough Moses.

I have no issue with an annual fitness test. The Winsor report is an unashamed attack on police pay, conditions and pension and while it's inevitable that public sector spending is to be slashed, the police service is not your average public service.

Tom Winsor wants police to work until they are 60. Who wants 60 year old cops on the street on a weekend when the pubs kick out?

Overtime rates are being slashed despite the massive intrusion into home life that overtime brings. An example I give is last November when my weekend off was abruptly called off to deal with an XRW rally. Plans binned, unhappy mrs and so on. I could not say I wasn't doing it as the bosses can and did order it and I think double time is a decent compensation for that and binned rest days happens regularly.

As it stands, Winsor pt 2 wants the law amended so that police can be made redundant but no industrial rights to go with it. Fair ?

Winsor is a blatant attack on police pay and conditions and it's being Doberman because as it stands, police cannot do a thing about it. We can't strike and work to rule is a myth too.

Cops bore the brunt of the violence and backlash from last August and while politicians praised cops in one breath, they were happy to slash pay and conditions that would see many officers lose out and should things go udders up again, it is the police who will be the front line.

I'm not naive enough to think that the cops will not take a hit given the wreck the UK economy but Winsor goes deep for not a great financial saving.
 
Commissario
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Didn't one of the reports into police fitness take the figures for the percentage of officers attending a Fitness scheme to help lose weight/keep fit, as an indication for the percentage of the total force who were overweight? (IE you take a sample of people attending a club to lose weight and assume that sample represents everyone in the job, not just those who may be tubby and trying to do something about it).
 
Man of Honour
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Didn't one of the reports into police fitness take the figures for the percentage of officers attending a Fitness scheme to help lose weight/keep fit, as an indication for the percentage of the total force who were overweight? (IE you take a sample of people attending a club to lose weight and assume that sample represents everyone in the job, not just those who may be tubby and trying to do something about it).

There are some shockingly overweight cops though. I have a bit baggage and am no Jean Claude by no means but I run 2-3 times a week and try to get a 12-15 mile bike ride in as well and card wise, I am quite fit. You have to be for general police duties and public order.
 
Soldato
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If someone gets injured on duty, should they just get paid their normal salary forever, or pensioned off? I mean, compare it to the forces, for example.

Of course not but the fact is they are not talking about pensioning them off, they are talking about dismissing them. You can say "made redundant" but the simple fact is you will be getting dismissed for doing your job and, because of unfortunate circumstances, you get injured.

If they were pensioned off then that would be different.

On a number of occasions, you mention 'outrageous proposals' - highlight them? Explain them (briefly)?

VS mentions one quite succinctly in relation to allowing forces to make officers compulsorily redundant yet still not allow them to have industrial rights i.e. the right to strike. I can't see how anyone can argue this as acceptable.

Another one is the freezing of increments. In the police there are 10 basic pay levels with the cop accessing the next pay level on the anniversary of their join date. They are freezing increments 4-10 so that cops who are sitting on 3-9 will not receive an increment for 2 years. This is IN ADDITION to the standard public sector pay freeze.

Bear in mind that, when the cops signed up, the increments were guaranteed and displayed so you knew what was coming. Now they are saying "look, I know we promised you X Salary for Y Year but we changed our minds"
 
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Soldato
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It's worth reading this other blog post. One of the most moving pieces of writing I've read, and gives you an idea of what kind of things the man does to make his child deserve being spat at..

http://minimumcover.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/and-then-there-was-silence/


I think the Winsor report is broadly speaking a significant amount of progress, I can understand why existing police don't want their overtime taken away, but if the police was such a bad job then there wouldn't be masses of people trying to get in on it. Same as teaching.

That's not a good measure though really. Policing isn't exactly you're average job, you can't really compare it to other jobs. People don't join the police for the money or the pension. Some of us are even willing to do it for free. There will always be people who want to be police.

That doesn't make Winsor's proposals fair though.
 
Soldato
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Have to agree with Richie on his points, because it has an effect on moral, which is important when you're doing such a job. I know this because it's whats happened to us in the Armed Forces over the past few years, and moral in this job has just been sapped away.

We're all getting put on new pensions in the next year or two, regardless of if we want it or not, and I've yet to meet anyone who does. But we can't strike about anything, so we have little choice but to accept what's happening.
 
Man of Honour
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Actually is was six shilling, which after decimalization was 30p. And strictly it was stealing a single item worth six shillings or more, which reveals the reason for it: since only rich people could afford something that expensive then it was to protect the rich from the poor. I'll refrain from any obvious remarks. But you are correct that it had little to no deterrent effect.


M

Are you sure it was that much? I've read that it was 12p. For example:

http://www.britannia.com/history/coroner2.html

[FONT=Arial,Arial]A felon was a criminal guilty of a capital offence, which, in those days, included any homicide or the theft of an article worth at least twelve pence[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial]

And yes, it was strictly speaking a single item. But it wasn't necessarily only luxury items for the rich and it wasn't necessarily an actual single item. A container of items with a high enough total value of would do it. Snatching a bag containing, say, a nice eating knife, some ribbon and thread and a couple of needles someone bought at the market, some food and a few coins and a bit of cheap jewellery or a crucifix...might add up to more than enough. A cow or pig would be worth more than enough.
[/FONT]
 
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Man of Honour
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Are you sure it was that much? I've read that it was 12p. For example:

http://www.britannia.com/history/coroner2.html

[FONT=Arial,Arial]

And yes, it was strictly speaking a single item. But it wasn't necessarily only luxury items for the rich and it wasn't necessarily an actual single item. A container of items with a high enough total value of would do it. Snatching a bag containing, say, a nice eating knife, some ribbon and thread and a couple of needles someone bought at the market, some food and a few coins and a bit of cheap jewellery or a crucifix...might add up to more than enough. A cow or pig would be worth more than enough.
[/FONT]



Six shillings is the figure I have from a history book relating to around 1780-1790. It's possible that the figure was lower at some other point - I just assumed that it wasn't! The fine detail may be true as well: the issue was only glanced over as part of something else. But at the prices of the time, the bag you mentioned would still struggle to be over two and half shillings (which is where I assume the 12p came from). But either way, everyone was well aware that the law was used to protect the rich from the poor, and probably always will be: the law-makers always number amongst the rich, and so do their major backers.

M
 
Man of Honour
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Six shillings is the figure I have from a history book relating to around 1780-1790. It's possible that the figure was lower at some other point - I just assumed that it wasn't!

Well, that explains the difference. I was looking at late medieval, within a couple of centuries of the Norman conquest. I'm strangely uninterested in later English history.

The fine detail may be true as well: the issue was only glanced over as part of something else. But at the prices of the time, the bag you mentioned would still struggle to be over two and half shillings (which is where I assume the 12p came from).

No, it was specified in pence. That was the only real standard for smaller amounts in the late medieval (and the only coin made in any quantity - larger denominations such as the mark and the pound were more accounting figures than actual currency).

But either way, everyone was well aware that the law was used to protect the rich from the poor, and probably always will be: the law-makers always number amongst the rich, and so do their major backers.

That is surprisingly less true than you think.

For example, there's a documentary on the life of commoners in the late medieval period. They used real records of a real person to illustrate. There was nothing unusual about her - she was chosen because she was a commoner for whom there are enough extant records to piece together enough of her life to use her as an example. Not unusual records, just a relatively full collection of ordinary records. Things like her being fined for selling beer without a license, stuff like that. One of the records is an official court record of her taking a nobleman to court over death tax levied on her husband. She argued that the law was that the shop lease on which the tax was based automatically reverted wholly to her when her husband died and thus couldn't be used for the purposes of determining his death tax. The court ruled in her favour. A financial ruling against a nobleman and in favour of a peasant woman. She wasn't even a freeman! The law was not necessarily used to protect the rich from the poor.

Back to the issue of hanging for theft - there's a record of a person being hanged for stealing a basket of eggs. Granted, that was seen as being harsh even then, but it happened. You didn't need to be rich to have a basket of eggs - a peasant with some chickens on their bit of land might well have a basket of eggs to trade at the market. The 12p figure wasn't particularly high - in those days an ordinary worker would be paid about 2p per day. That's for a common trade, not for a job with any degree of status. You didn't need to be rich to be carrying items worth about a week's pay for an ordinary worker.
 
Caporegime
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Fine. But gang related crimes, stabbings and shootings have never been as prolific as they are today. Unless you're going to tell me it's no worse than it's ever been but they're just reported more today?

gonna bet they were worse in Victorian times etc.

Also this is one time I'd be willing to look the other way on a police brutality charge.
 
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