A single temporary average speed camera (M62 Eastbound M60 junction)

[Redgie]

So in the past few weeks / months, a single average speed camera has been placed on the side of the M26 Eastbound right before the M60 junction turnoff. By the looks of it the average speed cameras continue on the M60 (probably during the smart motorway stuff) which makes sense. The limit for said camera is on a temporary set of signs showing 50mph.

Here's the thing though, the camera has only 3 individual camera on it, on a section of motorway where the road is splitting into the M60 turn off and the M602 continuation into Manchester. This section has 4 lanes, not 3. The other problem is that this stretch of the M62 does not have any roadworks going on, nor any other reason for people to slow down.

My assumption is that the camera has been put up earlier than it should have been, and then some numpty has put signs on the M62 when they shouldn't have. The problem is that this is causing motorists to slam on the brakes from 70+ to 50 every day, causing no end of issues especially at rush hour. The other side even has signs (even though there are no cameras) which again causes issues travelling Westbound.

So a few questions:
- Is my assumption right, is it just a case of signs in the wrong place?
- Has anybody else seen the camera and have any other feedback?
- Can you even get a speeding ticket from a single average speed camera (is it just then effectively a standard speeding camera)?

Cheers .

UPDATE: From the sounds of it, the speed limits are there to ensure those leaving to and joining from the M60 (which has a 50mph limit due to the implementation of "smart" motorways) are doing so at the same speed as everyone else. In addition, only one average speed camera will do no harm.

 

[TripleT]

Funnily enough I was stuck on the other side of the road to this camera on Monday when my bike broke down so know exactly which one it is.

I'm guessing they meant to put it there as they want people to slow down BEFORE they enter the M60 as the bend to get on is a bit blind and if you doing 90mph trying to enter a 50 zone with traffic backed up on the slip-road it's pretty damn dangerous.

And I believe they don't log your speed so you can speed past a single camera. They just log your number plate at each camera and work out your average speed between the cameras.

 

[Redgie]

Hmm, here's hoping!

 

[George Hincapie]

Surely they need a minium of three cameras for an average speed? I could obviously have this completely wrong, but I thought that:

Camera 1 initiates the record
Camera 2 provides the first speed check
Camera 3 provides the second speed check

The system then averages.

 

[-Mike-]

Surely they need a minium of three cameras for an average speed? I could obviously have this completely wrong, but I thought that:

Camera 1 initiates the record
Camera 2 provides the first speed check
Camera 3 provides the second speed check

The system then averages.

You only need two cameras for the necessary measurement points.

Camera one records registration plate going past@ 15:00:02
Camera two records registration plate going past@15:00:45

Time taken to cover distance gives speed.

For example :

Speed = Distance ÷ Time

Camera distance interval = 0.5 miles
Time taken to cover that distance = 30 seconds
Average speed = 60mph

Replace those figures with time taken to cover the distance of 20 seconds perhaps and you've got an average of 90mph.

For a more relevant perhaps motorway speed check :

Distance = 5 miles between camera
Time taken to cover that distance of 5 minutes
Average speed = 60mph

 

[George Hincapie]

You only need two cameras for the necessary measurement points.

Camera one records registration plate going past@ 15:00:02
Camera two records registration plate going past@15:00:45

Time taken to cover distance gives speed.

For example :

Speed = Distance ÷ Time

Camera distance interval = 0.5 miles
Time taken to cover that distance = 30 seconds
Average speed = 60mph

Replace those figures with time taken to cover the distance of 20 seconds perhaps and you've got an average of 90mph.

For a more relevant perhaps motorway speed check :

Distance = 5 miles between camera
Time taken to cover that distance of 5 minutes
Average speed = 60mph

But that's not an average in the strictist sense is it? It's just a single speed measurement.

I am not suggesting you're wrong by the way; I don't know myself. Other than to say I know they work

 

[Phemo]

No but it is calculating average speed between two points.

There are quite a few places that have only two average cameras - one I see almost every day is the Hindhead tunnel on the A3 which has a camera before the tunnel and another after and it's just plain NSL either side.

 

[George Hincapie]

OK. Thanks for clearing that up

 

[-Mike-]

But that's not an average in the strictist sense is it? It's just a single speed measurement.

I am not suggesting you're wrong by the way; I don't know myself. Other than to say I know they work

It is an average, as its taken you x time to cover a distance, therefore your average speed must be y. You could vary your speed and cover the first 1/2 at a higher speed and the second 1/2 at a lower speed but your average speed is still the same figure.

Edit : I think my extra explanation is a waste of time! The guy above hit the nail on the head and this is what they go for.

 

[A.N.Other]

They've also just randomly dumped 3 SPECS trees around J11 on the M1 for some reason. They've gone up over the last week. Haven't seen anything on the net about them :/

 

[rG-tom]

i drive through this every single day. i think that this is there to start to monitor the traffic about to join the m60. The 50mph limit stays there as well i think to allow a smoother merging for the people joining the m602 from the m60. This is the same both ways for reference, m602 to m60 junction coming out of manchester

could be wrong, but that's my take on it

EDIT: for anyone who doesn't know it:

 

[ste_bla]

They've also just randomly dumped 3 SPECS trees around J11 on the M1 for some reason. They've gone up over the last week. Haven't seen anything on the net about them :/

For when they put in the new junction between 10 and 11

 

[delta0]

A couple of random average speed cameras appeared on the M1 around 11. They are on both sides. No road works and no signs for them.

Edit: completely missed the post above!

 

[tsinc80697]

i drive through this every single day. i think that this is there to start to monitor the traffic about to join the m60. The 50mph limit stays there as well i think to allow a smoother merging for the people joining the m602 from the m60. This is the same both ways for reference, m602 to m60 junction coming out of manchester

Smoother merging, HA! It's an absolute ****ing shambles of a couple of junctions that isn't helped by morons not able to understand how to merge into traffic and even bigger morons refusing to let someone into "their space" on "their motorway".

 

[Django x2]

Average speed cameras on the A34 are a complete joke. I often believe it costs more to establish the infrastructure for said cameras than any highways contractor is willing to fork out and therefore they are there purely as a deterrent rather than a live system.

Add that in with the fact that since the weather has improved. Local tree foliage immediately covers the lenses of all but 1 set of the cameras, and I can't help feeling a degree of annoyance

 

[rG-tom]

Smoother merging, HA! It's an absolute ****ing shambles of a couple of junctions that isn't helped by morons not able to understand how to merge into traffic and even bigger morons refusing to let someone into "their space" on "their motorway".

can't say i have too many problems with it :S maybe it's the time I'm joining, and the fact i'm never trying to join the m60 clockwise from the 62, which always is a mess anyway. I'm either going counter clockwise towards the trafford centre, or straight on down the m602 of an evening, or the exact opposite of these 2 in the morning.

I hit this typically at 6.45am and 4-6pm. It is typically slow moving in the left 2 lanes due to the people joining the practically stationary clockwise m60, but i find it generally worse at the birchwood junction than here! it stops for literally no reason at birchwood.

 

[Abraham]

All the roads joining the current 50 bit of the M60 have the 50 before you actually join the road, as Tom pointed out it's both ways at that junction, the same where you join from the M61 going in either direction.

I agree on it being a shambles of a pair of junctions though, if you join the M60 clockwise from either 62 or 602 then you're at the mersey of the numbskulls who are turning off at the next junction and refuse to move across to let people join the motorway, or vary their speed in any way to make it possible for you to pull out. I've not had to stop before joining a motorway anywhere else without stationary traffic

 

[Orford]

I drive through there every day, that junction is very busy early morning. For safety they may of decided (assumption) to slow all four lanes of traffic. Having two lanes at 50mph ready to joint a motorway with ongoing road works and other traffic on that motorway already at 50mph. The other two lanes that go into Manchester passing at 70mph would cause more problems then slowing all four lanes even if the outer two didn't fall into the speed trap.

Its the same on the other side on the way home. Merging traffic is joining supposedly at the same speed even though the M62 out of Manchester has no road works but the M60 does.

Good idea in my opinion.

Edit: This point has already been mentioned.

 

[m4rkw7]

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The M602 is 70 all the way just after you pass the M60 turn off coming down the M62 on to the M602 there's signs either side stating it's end of roadworks and back to NSL. Although if you're coming from Manchester towards Liverpool on the M602/M62 there are 50MPH signs on that side of the road for what I can tell no reason?

The M62 is NSL all the way as well as far as I know. I drive this road a lot and a month or so a go there was a sign up near that camera that's by itself saying it was not in use, that sign has now gone so I guess it is now in use.

It's just this smart motorway on the M60 that's 50 MPH average going both ways.

But to answer your question If I'm coming down the M62 and taking the M602 in to Manchester I'll stay at 70 MPH because you only pass that one average camera as all the rest are on the M60.

If I'm coming down the M62 and exiting on to the M60 I'll slow down to 50 MPH when passing it because as soon as you hit the exit slip to the M60 there's another camera on the left.

Also if you're one of the ***** that drives in the 3rd lane when the two lefts left merging to the M60 from the M62 are at a standstill at rush hour then stops stationary in the 3rd lane with your indicator on so you can push in to the 2nd lane. I hate you. The amount of times someone has just sat in a live motorway line so they can cut in..dangerous!

 

[Redgie]

From the sounds of it, the speed limits are there to ensure those leaving to and joining from the M60 (which has a 50mph limit due to the implementation of "smart" motorways) are doing so at the same speed as everyone else. In addition, only one average speed camera will do no harm.

Thanks for the info everyone, I was afraid this predominantly southern forum would fail me on this