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A victory for free speech for everyone

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Faustus, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Faustus

    Soldato

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  2. SPG

    Mobster

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    I am sure no LBGTA community will ever use them as a cake decorating services again due to their total lack of respect of respecting their LGBT status, of course the LGBT community have no tolerance of anyone not respecting a LGBTA status and the rule does not apply vice versa as being LBGTA is the closest you can get to being divine without believing in GOD (Other GODS do apply, i would not want to so arrogant and small minded and think that their was only one GOD (Shame its all lie)) Normal people will just order a cake and have happy birthday on top and be done with it and understand/respect the owners beliefs (no matter how wrong it seems to them)

    On the flip size, good PR for a cake shop.

    Next issue over nothing please start a new thread :)
     
  3. efish

    Hitman

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    In this case man goes into cake shop to order a build you're own cake with message. He is attending a work (LGBT support of some kind or other) related event (people buy cakes for all sorts of reasons). He gives the message, shop takes the cash. He has no idea what the religious convictions of the owners are (its a cake shop why would you). The phone him back say its a no go and refund on religious grounds.

    Most people would leave it at that point. If you apply the law of charity I think his decision to take the matter further is understandably regardless of how you may feel in regard to outcome.


    In the same way if someone was attending 'The John Knox Damnable Sinner of the Year', stopped at the build you're own cake shop and order the most plain cake (No! pink icing would be a vanity)with the message " the only form of marriage consistent with Biblical teaching (and therefore acceptable to God) is that between a man and a woman"


    I could see why they may feel upset, feel their freedom of expression was being denied and the very core of their belief was under attack if refused.

    Perfectly natural response to the intolerant empathy-less place we call home.

    I think its somewhat sad state of affairs rather than a victory (not the outcome, just the fact that an argument over confectionery can get this bitter). I find it difficult to relate the idea of common sense to an article that has 'gay cake' in the title.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  4. Cern

    Mobster

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    I'm not sure how you can dress this up as a victory for free speech when Party A has prevented Party B from saying what they wish on a cake because they disagree with it.

    Both sides are at fault here for escalating it to the point where it has ended up wasting taxpayer's money. At the end of the day, it's just a cake with a not particularly controversial message.

    I blame The Great British Bake Off for weaponising cake design :p
     
  5. Tony Edwards

    Wise Guy

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    Its a cake!
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  6. StriderX

    Capodecina

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    I wonder what they'd feel if i asked for a "down with William of Orange" cake.
     
  7. koolpc

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    Glad common sense prevailed. Ruddy stupid in the first place trying to dictate what a cake shop can and cant do. Its their shop for goodness sake.

    Plus, all this LGBT rubbish gets on my nerves as they are so quick to attack any straight person who goes against their sordid beliefs.
     
  8. inogen

    Mobster

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    I agree with the principle that the cake shop shouldn't have to make a cake with a message on that they don't agree with.

    I think they're ****holes to refuse though. It's just a cake. They're a bakery. Bake the cake and get on with your lives you regressive zealots.

    It's a victory for free speech in that it should be free for people to be ****holes. Great stuff. Up the ****holes.
     
  9. efish

    Hitman

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    The end of the 'Big Kahuna' Burger scene in Pulp fiction revisited?

    My advice don't run with the green icing option (although it may no longer be available as it is not in keeping with deeply held cultural convictions).
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  10. Stretch

    Capodecina

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    I don't know the details, but did the person ordering the cake know in advance that bakery would or very likely would have a problem with the wording?
     
  11. koolpc

    Capodecina

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    Utter rubbish
     
  12. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

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    So gay people are sordid?
     
  13. doodah

    Capodecina

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    Threads like this are always eye opening for seeing who the closet homophones are. I fully expect someone to post "don't mind as long as they don't rub it in my face".
     
  14. SPG

    Mobster

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    Depends on how fit they are*

    *yes i am that shallow
     
  15. Cern

    Mobster

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    It doesn't appear so. At the point of sale (at the branch) the money was taken and the order placed successfully. It was only when they came to process the order that someone has objected, referred it to their head office who then refused the order and refunded the customer.

    It's a cake shop with no obvious customer-facing religious or ethical stance. How would the customer be expected to know the views of the owner (although everyone does now of course)? It's not like they walked into a vegan restaurant and ordered a steak and then got offended when refused.

    Every day in business people are required to deal with people they don't necessarily agree with, but most people manage to be tolerant and balanced about it and don't force their personal views on others.

    There's also a rather pathetic hypocrisy here that those defending the cake shop owner's right to "free speech" (which is essentially a byword for the right to be bigots) are happy for someone else's free speech to be impinged in the process.

    The problem with the ruling is that of precedents and where does anyone stand now? Will shops have to publish disclaimers and lists of what issues they aren't willing to conduct business on?
     
  16. Stretch

    Capodecina

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    The only reason I asked is the customer in question is apparently a gay right capmaigner.

    If the cake was ordered to prove a point and provoke a reaction I don’t think it’s helpful.
     
  17. efish

    Hitman

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    This is certainly not a 'victory of understanding.' Its difficult to read as its spluttering out in media soundbites Victory for crumble candy bars, moms apple pie, cute puppy dogs. Reason has returned to happy valley, Hobbits rejoice.

    Whats the bakers idea of whats perfectly natural and common-sense, what does that look like in a very conservative religious community with a long history in non-conformity and 'cases of consciousness'?

    These are not common sense ideas that trip off the tongue but go to the core of people idea of themselves and the world in which they live. 'Natural and reasoned' take on a whole different meaning here.

    No neat fit or easy compromise. I don't know but I suspect the bakers argument would be along the lines of, this has nothing to do with being gay but everything to do with divine authority and gods judgement. Misfortune is sent by God to test. Its a matter of conscience, you seek guidance and work out the issue as best you can (which leaves some room to escape from a no surrender perspective).

    Its light years away from the perspective most of us will have. But people do have to be allowed to have such freedom and the right to not conform.

    Really nothing to with the law but the way we behave, the ignorance and lack of understanding we show to each other.

    The need to have to enforce here, will certainly be testing, reason why such laws need to be put in place has nothing to do with common sense rather the total absence of understanding, particularly in regard to perspectives other than our own.
     
  18. angel102

    Gangster

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    If I want to buy a graphics card from overclockers they don't get to decide what I use it for even if they may disagree with it. Tell me how this is any different?
     
  19. Cern

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    Well this crossed my mind too as clearly the cake was intended to make a statement. But it doesn't seem, from the information reported, that they were trying to trigger a reaction in the shop. If they were, they would have expected to have been rebuffed when originally placing the order, not later.

    This may only be cake, but there are wider ramifications. Does this mean that it becomes difficult to get campaign material published or items manufactured unless you can be sure the views of the company you use align with your own views on the matter at hand?
     
  20. McBain

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    It's not the cake that's the problem, it's the slogan requested to be put on it that the baker objected to.