Alder Lake-S leaks

[KompuKare]

It has many advantages beyond the speed, or in your case, the obsession with it being a "one up".

At the same price, I'm sure that everyone would prefer DDR5 for any new purchases.
All I'm pointing out is that every previous memory transition has been beset with issues.
Usually the next gen has been expensive and short of supply so the manufacturers see it as a chance to push prices back up as usually the old gen has been around a while and has excess capacity etc.
The first few iterations of next gen have also often been no faster than the old gen's still cheaper higher end parts.
Eventually, a few years into the next gen, most of these problems will be gone.
The cautious buyers like me can then thank the paid-through-the-nose early adopters.
So I'll thank you in advance while I sit and watch.

 

[DeathStorm]

Well, 5 is a higher number than 4, but why?

You say it like that but there's plenty of people who will happily buy the latest regardless of its actual performance.

Take those buying the 11900K for example and that's at the top end of pricing; I can see plenty of people buying something running DDR 5 just to be future proof too.

 

[KompuKare]

You say it like that but there's plenty of people who will happily buy the latest regardless of its actual performance.

Take those buying the 11900K for example and that's at the top end of pricing; I can see plenty of people buying something running DDR 5 just to be future proof too.

Well, I think I have reused DDR, DDR2 and DDR3 when it was old - that is when it was slow and of low capacity compared to anything new. So of some use, I guess but hardly future proof.

As for the i9 11900K buyers like the other post on this sub-forum. Well, if they enjoy it let them carry on but comments like

Even though I was aware of the bad reports about this CPU, I did not think it was as bad as expected.

Not happy overclocked i9-11900K, Games, et, blue screen crashes!?
are a bit strange. While professional reviewers don't cover everything, I cannot see any user doing significantly better than them. The top of range i9 doesn't even lend itself to undervolting which is something reviewers do tend to neglect.

 

[Cooler running]

The cautious buyers like me can then thank the paid-through-the-nose early adopters.

I'm not sure why you're so concerned, especially as there's usually a chipset that supports both when it's that new

 

[humbug]

To all those people who keep spouting "20% IPC increase" just as they did with Rocket Lake.... i agree with this guy, tell me how? because look at where Rocket Lake IPC actually ended up.

https://youtu.be/0T1HBme_F4c?t=1279

Zen 2 to Zen 3: 19% IPC increase, here's how.

• 96 entry integer scheduler (up from 92)
• 192 entry physical register file (up from 180)
• 10 issue per cycle (up from 7)
• 256 entry reorder-buffer (up from 224)
• fewer cycles for DIV/IDIV ops (10...20 from 16...46)
• Improved floating point units
• 6 µOP dispatch width (up from 4)
• 4 cycles for fused-multiply-add-ops (down from 5)

At this i don't think we can trust anything Intel say.

 

[LePhuronn]

To be honest, you can't use Rocket Lake as an example of anything other than catastrophic balls ups. Intel's marketing (as always) skews the big picture, but look at Tiger Lake's IPC increase over previous gen.

Willow Cove, as an arch, did bring good increases over previous gen. The trouble is, everything that was good about Willow Cove got decimated in the 14nm backport to Cypress Cove. but Intel kept the marketing hype going as if Rocket Lake was the 10nm Willow Cove design they'd always intended.

I'm perfectly happy to rag on Intel because after a decade of being utter stagnating ***** they deserve a good hiding and actually seeing some form of punishment, be that loss of sales, loss of face or general humiliation, however it's unfair to immediately rule out Alder Lake 8 months before it even shows up just because Rocket Lake is a joke.

If Intel could get big gains from Willow Cove, why can't they get big gains from Golden Cove? Cypress Cove is an anomaly because of the backporting, Golden Cove will be produced on the node it was designed for.

And frankly, the only reason you can quantify Zen 3's IPC uplift over Zen 2 is because the arch is a year old and the details are actually available. We don't know what Intel are doing with Golden Cove. Hell, what happens if they pull and AMD and do a Zen 1 with 50% IPC uplift over Cypress Cove? And that's another point to mention: 20% IPC uplift over Cypress Cove. That's not exactly a difficult target.

 

[humbug]

To be honest, you can't use Rocket Lake as an example of anything other than catastrophic balls ups. Intel's marketing (as always) skews the big picture, but look at Tiger Lake's IPC increase over previous gen.

Willow Cove, as an arch, did bring good increases over previous gen. The trouble is, everything that was good about Willow Cove got decimated in the 14nm backport to Cypress Cove. but Intel kept the marketing hype going as if Rocket Lake was the 10nm Willow Cove design they'd always intended.

I'm perfectly happy to rag on Intel because after a decade of being utter stagnating ***** they deserve a good hiding and actually seeing some form of punishment, be that loss of sales, loss of face or general humiliation, however it's unfair to immediately rule out Alder Lake 8 months before it even shows up just because Rocket Lake is a joke.

If Intel could get big gains from Willow Cove, why can't they get big gains from Golden Cove? Cypress Cove is an anomaly because of the backporting, Golden Cove will be produced on the node it was designed for.

And frankly, the only reason you can quantify Zen 3's IPC uplift over Zen 2 is because the arch is a year old and the details are actually available. We don't know what Intel are doing with Golden Cove. Hell, what happens if they pull and AMD and do a Zen 1 with 50% IPC uplift over Cypress Cove? And that's another point to mention: 20% IPC uplift over Cypress Cove. That's not exactly a difficult target.

I'm not ruling it out

Its people who quote Intel as if its fact and they haven't already (exaggerated the truth) over and over again, its like watching someone get mugged over and over again whilst never making any effort to hide their wallet because they are perpetually oblivious to reality.

 

[rustyk21]

Lol, you two clearly aren't bored of overwhelming this thread with anti-intel rhetoric.

So back to Alder Lake S, I'm not sure if it's already been said here, but I think it's almost certain that there will be a mixture of DDR4 and DDR5 support at launch. There are precedents for this and also good reasons for doing so.

Also, I think the platform will be buggy and have performance issues at launch, but the delivery model that MS have with Windows 10 will help mitigate this and will allow them to make optimizations relatively quickly. Of coure whether this is an issue or not depends on how well the hardware scheduler works.
I wouldn't be shocked if the platform will be backwardly compatible with other OSs, but will require a specific release of Windows to get the full performance.

Once the early adopter tax has been paid, it will be interesting to see where the big.little concept goes, in terms of actual pros/cons, where it fits in the product stack and if it beomes more widely adopted on desktop platforms in general.
In principle, Hybrid technologies have the capability to be superior, but like it any plan, it all comes done to the quality of execution.

 

[LePhuronn]

...overwhelming this thread with anti-intel rhetoric...

You're still banging on about this? Do you actually read anything or just scan posts for Intel and negative words and draw totally incorrect conclusions? Are you a bit? Or are you actually the fanboy I've up until now refrained from accusing you of?

"Anti-Intel rhetoric." OK, do you know what rhetoric actually is? Tell me any one point in humbug's post that is not quantifiably true. Tell me how actually bringing historical trends and empirical data into the discussion is a bad thing. How is citing Intel's very real failures and outright lies "anti Intel"? If you want posters to stop saying negative things about Intel, then maybe Intel shouldn't be a such a ******* joke with their hot garbage products.

And of course, if you did actually read what was posted, you'd see I even went as far as dismissing some of humbug's stance! So how was I "overwhelming this thread with anti-Intel rhetoric"?

You're a broken record with nothing of substance to contribute and if anybody is derailing threads it's arguably not us. Why are you even bothering?

 

[rustyk21]

You're still banging on about this? Do you actually read anything or just scan posts for Intel and negative words and draw totally incorrect conclusions? Are you a bit? Or are you actually the fanboy I've up until now refrained from accusing you of?

"Anti-Intel rhetoric." OK, do you know what rhetoric actually is? Tell me any one point in humbug's post that is not quantifiably true. Tell me how actually bringing historical trends and empirical data into the discussion is a bad thing. How is citing Intel's very real failures and outright lies "anti Intel"? If you want posters to stop saying negative things about Intel, then maybe Intel shouldn't be a such a ******* joke with their hot garbage products.

And of course, if you did actually read what was posted, you'd see I even went as far as dismissing some of humbug's stance! So how was I "overwhelming this thread with anti-Intel rhetoric"?

You're a broken record with nothing of substance to contribute and if anybody is derailing threads it's arguably not us. Why are you even bothering?

Tell me how any of what you just posted has anything to do with Alder Lake S?

As for Humbug, well I already challenged one of his IPC figures with actual data, but that was glossed over because it doesn't fit the narrative.
Someone else challenged one of your assertions about Intel HEDT and you glossed over that too.
It's ironic that I just posted a few thoughts about Alder Lake S as discussion starters and you completely ignored them.

You should take a breath for a minute and appreciate that this is a forum, not a fiefdom.

 

[humbug]

Tell me how any of what you just posted has anything to do with Alder Lake S?

As for Humbug, well I already challenged one of his IPC figures with actual data, but that was glossed over because it doesn't fit the narrative.
Someone else challenged one of your assertions about Intel HEDT and you glossed over that too.
It's ironic that I just posted a few thoughts about Alder Lake S as discussion starters and you completely ignored them.

You should take a breath for a minute and appreciate that this is a forum, not a fiefdom.

Wait, you did?? i don't remember that. We can do that now...

All CPU's at 4Ghz.

https://www.techspot.com/article/2143-ryzen-5000-ipc-performance/

On average, including games and productivity in their testing Zen 3 IPC is up 16% on Zen 2, about 21% better on average than Coffee Lake.

Tho i have to be honest i don't trust his gaming comparisons so much, he pushes a narrative that Zen 3 is over priced, which is fine, i don't disagree with that, but he uses gaming slides that are very suspect to push that narrative, not that these slides are a lie, but he tends to use slower mid range GPU's with the highest possible IQ settings to off load as much as possible to the GPU denying the faster CPU use of its true performance overhead.

He very defiantly did that with this slide (Slide #1) and used it to make that argument using 6700XT. "oh see the 5600X is only 7% faster"
Slide #2 Steve Burke used an RTX 3080, a GPU about 40% faster, same game, same built in benchmark, again you see the 3600 at the same 210'ish frame rates HUB got but the 5600X is now at 330 FPS, not 230.

I like Steve from Hardware Unboxed, but his entire MO is winging about things that are too expensive, that's fine, quite often i agree with him, what i don't like is his deliberate manipulation of his audience to bolster his arguments, he does this because he knows the true performance difference in games between Zen 2 and Zen 3 is between 20 and 50% and that blows his narrative out of the water.

 

[rustyk21]

Wait, you did?? i don't remember that. We can do that now...

Bit wierd, it was only a couple of pages ago. The luxury of a forum is that there is a posting history, so if you were genuinely inclined to entertain my point, you could have gone back and quoted the previous statements.

So anyway, cutting out your page of fluff, which strangely has nothing to do with Alder Lake S (what a shocker), we are left with this.

You said: "Ivy Bridge to Haswell claim: +15%, actual +5%"

I quoted this link: https://www.anandtech.com/show/7003...performs,average performance advantage of 17%

They said "Quite possibly the most surprising was just how consistent (and large) the performance improvements were in our Visual Studio 2012 compile test. With a 15% increase in performance vs. Ivy Bridge at the same frequencies, what we’re looking at here is the perfect example of Haswell’s IPC increases manifesting in a real-world benchmark."

So there's you, saying it's 5%, then there's Anandtech, saying it's 15%. If I'm reading it all wrong then fine, happy to admit I've made a mistake.

 

[Destination]

You are really linking back to intel 'improvements' from 9 years ago?
Same token, this actual year, 10700 compared with 11700 in the very slide above, is a regression, which wasn't consistent across games tested but was actually found in many of them.
Intel have been unfortunately ***** in progression for almost 10 years. New launch each year, trickle fed each year.
Its why many people jumped ship.

 

[turbot1984]

You are really linking back to intel 'improvements' from 9 years ago?
Same token, this actual year, 10700 compared with 11700 in the very slide above, is a regression, which wasn't consistent across games tested but was actually found in many of them.
Intel have been unfortunately ***** in progression for almost 10 years. New launch each year, trickle fed each year.
Its why many people jumped ship.

Fair play but I jumped from 4 core [email protected] to 10850k 10 [email protected] ... that's progress in my book.

 

[humbug]

Bit wierd, it was only a couple of pages ago. The luxury of a forum is that there is a posting history, so if you were genuinely inclined to entertain my point, you could have gone back and quoted the previous statements.

So anyway, cutting out your page of fluff, which strangely has nothing to do with Alder Lake S (what a shocker), we are left with this.

You said: "Ivy Bridge to Haswell claim: +15%, actual +5%"

I quoted this link: https://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/6#:~:text=In general, I saw performance,gains were actually quite impressive.&text=The Core i7-4770K outperforms,average performance advantage of 17%

They said "Quite possibly the most surprising was just how consistent (and large) the performance improvements were in our Visual Studio 2012 compile test. With a 15% increase in performance vs. Ivy Bridge at the same frequencies, what we’re looking at here is the perfect example of Haswell’s IPC increases manifesting in a real-world benchmark."

So there's you, saying it's 5%, then there's Anandtech, saying it's 15%. If I'm reading it all wrong then fine, happy to admit I've made a mistake.

We were talking about Rocket Lake and Zen 3, one mistake in a round up of what i thought was Intel's history does not make my assertion any less valid, you will have to do much better than splitting hairs.

 

[rustyk21]

You are really linking back to intel 'improvements' from 9 years ago?
Same token, this actual year, 10700 compared with 11700 in the very slide above, is a regression, which wasn't consistent across games tested but was actually found in many of them.
Intel have been unfortunately ***** in progression for almost 10 years. New launch each year, trickle fed each year.
Its why many people jumped ship.

Lol, what is this, the amd mafia?

A. I was pointing out that someone was posting misleading information in this thread. Sorry for using facts to dispute assertions.

B. What's it got to do with Alder Lake S?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

How is saying Zen3 is expensive blowing the narrative of Hardware Unboxed out of the water? Its hilarious the nonsense in this thread. Many here on purpose denigrated the performance difference between Intel CPUs and AMD ones, even though Zen+ and Zen2 was easily beaten in gaming performance by CFL,etc. I have both a Ryzen 7 3700X and a Core i5 6C/12T,and the former can still lose in certain games especially with equalised memory speeds. Yet everyone was going on AMD was cheaper so it didn't matter. The moment AMD decided to go even more expensive than Intel in prices,sudden the massive price increase is justified since AMD is faster,and value for money isn't important.

The flip-flop is ridiculous. The moment Intel beats AMD again expect people to then say speed isn't important but value is.

Also what is all this talk of AMD CPUs in this thread got to go with Alder Lake S?

 

[humbug]

How is saying Zen3 is expensive blowing the narrative of Hardware Unboxed out of the water? Its hilarious the nonsense in this thread. Many here on purpose denigrated the performance difference between Intel CPUs and AMD ones, even though Zen+ and Zen2 was easily beaten in gaming performance by CFL,etc. I have both a Ryzen 7 3700X and a Core i5 10400,and the former can still lose in certain games especially with equalised memory speeds. Yet everyone was going on AMD was cheaper so it didn't matter. The moment AMD decided to go even more expensive than AMD in prices,sudden the massive price increase is justified since AMD is faster,and value for money isn't important.

The flip-flop is ridiculous. The moment Intel beats AMD again expect people to then say speed isn't important but value is.

That's not really what i said, not entirely. You're either not actually reading what i said or deliberately leaving a lot out to make this argument.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

That's not really what i said, not entirely.

You are attacking Steve from Hardware Unboxed accusing him of making Zen3 look too slow so he can recommend Intel became it's cheaper. Look at the UK street price of a Ryzen 5 5600X against a £150 Ryzen 5 3600 or Intel equivalents. Its still an overpriced 6C CPU.

Guess what? He also recommended the Ryzen 5 3600 over the Core I5 series despite the latter being faster than a Ryzen 7 3700X in many games. The reason? It cost too much. Also again he didn't test some games based on older engines where anything AMD before Zen2 was noticeably slower.

He is entirely consistent in how he recommends his CPUs. Its not their fault if AMD decided to prioritise wafer supply for consoles,and ignore most of the sub £300 CPU market. Literally even if the Zen3 CPUs are 40% faster than Zen2 the street prices for several months from UK retailers was over 40% higher than equivalent Zen2 parts. These same Zen2 are now expensive than several similar thread count CML/RKL Intel parts which are just faster in gaming.

Literally all the review sites and channels are recommending Intel parts under £280. Its not a conspiracy of people not acknowledging Zen3 bring fast. Its an effect of AMD having diverted supplies to consoles. Supply and pricing of Zen3 has been terrible in many major markets which lead to excessive scalping. Only now are Zen3 prices starting to stabilise,yonks after launch.

 

[humbug]

You are attacking Steve from Hardware Unboxed accusing him of making Zen3 look too slow so he can recommend Intel became it's cheaper. Look at the UK street price of a Ryzen 5 5600X against a £150 Ryzen 5 3600 or Intel equivalents. Its still an overpriced 6C CPU.

Guess what? He also recommended the Ryzen 5 3600 over the Core I5 K series despite the latter being faster than a Ryzen 7 3700X in many games. The reason? It cost too much. Also again he didn't test some games based on older engines where anything AMD before Zen2 was noticeably slower.

He is entirely consistent in how he recommends his CPUs. Its not their fault if AMD decided to prioritise wafer supply for consoles,and ignore most of the sub £300 CPU market. Literally even if the Zen3 CPUs are 40% than Zen2 the street prices for several months from UK retailers was over 40% higher than equivalent Zen2 parts. These same Zen2 are now expensive than several similar thread count CML/RKL Intel parts which are just faster in gaming.

Literally all the review sites and channels are recommending Intel parts under £280. Its not a conspiracy of people not acknowledging Zen3 bring fast. Its an effect of AMD having diverted supplies to consoles.

Yes it is. You are attacking Steve from Hardware Unboxed accusing him of making Zen3 look too slow so he can recommend Intel became it's cheaper. Look at the UK street price of a Ryzen 5 5600X against a £150 Ryzen 5 3600 or Intel equivalents. Its still an overpriced 6C CPU.

No, i said his entire narrative was winging about over priced CPU's, i said absolute nothing about vendors, you're the one imprinting that on what you think you're reading between the lines, what i said was he was comparing the 5600X to the 3600, nothing at all to do with Intel, that alone tells me you didn't read what i said, not properly.

He compared a Ryzen 3600 to a 5600X, which in the game he used to compare the 5600X is 45% faster, he used a much slower mid range GPU than the one even he normally uses to make the argument that the 5600X is only 7% faster than the 3600 and therefore not justified in its price difference, again Steve Burke's slide shows the true difference of 45% which does kill his narrative, despite this i also still think the 5600X is over priced, but this, what he did is a manipulation of the facts, its how slimy ###weasel politicians operate and we all hate them for it, He did exactly the same thing comparing the Ryzen 3600 to the 9900K and i had something to say about that too.