** ALL NEW (WITH RULES) Summer Transfer Window 2012/2013 Season Rumours/Signings **

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cm1179 said:
well, if we line up like this and we 'click' when all are available and fully fit, we have the makings of a great team

Bale Adebayor Dempsey

Sigurdsson

Sandro Dembele

Assou-Ekotto Kaboul Vertonghen Walker

Lloris

that's with defoe, parker, lennon, caulker, livermore, friedel. on the bench. chuck in jenas and bentley for depth
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I think you can put any players in a line up and dream of them producing incredible performances. "IF" is a huge word.

Even Jenas has moments of greatness, I could put him in that line up and imagine him being incredible.

The skeptic in me sees Siggy as fairly average and by no means world class, Dempsey had a reasonable season in a team, which DM pointed out, was set up to create him chances. Dembele has only come good in the last 6 months, Adebayor has a terrible habit of settling in and becoming rubbish.

IF all the players click and repeatedly produce their A game. It is a strong team. Same scenario with Modric instead of Sigurdssen and VDV instead of Dempsey, again with both players producing their top game, that is a much stronger team.

The 100% game is unlikely though. On a 70% performance the current team is a top 6 team at most, probably top 8; definitely not top 4.
 
Snax said:
I think you can put any players in a line up and dream of them producing incredible performances. "IF" is a huge word.

Even Jenas has moments of greatness, I could put him in that line up and imagine him being incredible.

The skeptic in me sees Siggy as fairly average and by no means world class, Dempsey had a reasonable season in a team, which DM pointed out, was set up to create him chances. Dembele has only come good in the last 6 months, Adebayor has a terrible habit of settling in and becoming rubbish.

IF all the players click and repeatedly produce their A game. It is a strong team. Same scenario with Modric instead of Sigurdssen and VDV instead of Dempsey, again with both players producing their top game, that is a much stronger team.

The 100% game is unlikely though. On a 70% performance the current team is a top 6 team at most, probably top 8; definitely not top 4.
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I don't remember pointing out the team was built for Dempsey, it wasn't, if it was he'd have played center forward. He had a lot of chances and a lot of goals because of the way he played. He scored a lot of goals that were strikers chances, and he scored a lot that were more Lampard-style, as in late run into the box. He's a well rounded player and he's a very very good player, not because the team was focused on him at all. He's good in all aspects of his game and an intelligent player, his movement is fantastic which is what led to so many chances. He also had that simple thing, willingness to shoot, confidence to shoot. He shot a buttload, no more than other top scorers, and scored goals, you need players willing to shot.

Also Dembele only come good in the past 6 months, complete tosh, he's been EXCELLENT since the day he signed, he's only been noticed in the past 6 months, that is a very different thing. He started off upfront or wide, and has gone from being more of a proper striker to more of a proper midfielder, the whole time he was really just a playmaker and adapted to different positions. Again this is very simply because he's a intelligent player able to do what needs doing in a given position. Excellent vision, I think he can certain up his scoring rate, the only thing we've seen more in the past 6 months is that in a more central role he's more capable of winning the ball back and stiffling the opposition midfield than most thought he'd be good at.


For me Dembele is better than Modric, and Dempsey better than VDV for one reason, they fill the roles required better.

For all the games Spurs couldn't find a winning goal, a lot of that was because Modric is TOO deep, not involved enough and not shooting enough. Parker has the DM role covered, in that team with Parker back to shore up the defence Modric needed to be further forward, make more runs into the box and take more shots, he didn't. The odd wonder goal aside he wasn't nearly enough of a threat and Spurs so frequently needed that added threat from central midfield to overcome a stubborn defence. Dempsey scored more than VDV, works harder, does more defensively and is more versatile all things VDV suffered from not having in his game. When VDV was played on the wing, his lack of defending hurt the team, same goes for if he was played centrally and you needed him to help dominate midfield. He also wasn't enough of a striker to play that far forward.

He's great when he's on it, he's not particularly effective when he's not. Players who are technically less good, but fit in with the team better, make a better team. VDV isn't a striker, isn't a winger, isn't a midfielder, making his role/versatility/scope so limited its hard to fit him in a team. Modric while an excellent passer wasn't strong enough defensively to make him being so deep worthwhile, nor was he strong enough going forward to mean a more offensive central midfielder wouldn't work with the team better.

For me Dembele would alongside a very good defensive midfielder, offer more offense/variation to the offense and work better for the team. Same goes for Dempsey over VDV, left wing, right wing, striker, he'll work harder, longer and more often while offering the same or more of a goal threat than VDV.
 
I'm not sure Liverpool can sign them if they've only been released after our transfer window has closed.

If they could though, it might go some way to explain why they weren't exactly panicking yesterday. Drogba isn't much different to Carroll though - faster with feet (certainly thinking about moves anyway), but he's still the big physical presence Rodgers wasn't interested in.
 
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There's a fair few rumours going around claiming that our failure to land a striker on deadline day might cost Ian Ayre his job. I'm not sure how true they are or whether he, Rodgers or the owners are to blame though.

Ben Smith from the BBC claims that Rodgers was the one that put all our eggs in the Dempsey basket but the owners weren't willing to spend more than a nominal fee on a 29 year old (I'd assume Rodgers would have known this - most supporters already knew). He also says that the owners were willing to spend much more than what was being asked by Fulham to sign a younger striker.

Purdy said:
Well if the net spend is pretty low its not exactly much out of their pocket, anyone got actual figures? (Also considering how much they've lowered the wage bill too.)
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The club have spent around £52m net on transfers (and around £20m hiring/firing managers) since FSG took over. As for how much money has come out of their pocket - other than the money to buy the club of course, they've given the club at least £30m. Whether they've injected any more cash into the club, we won't know until the next lot of accounts are out but it's a minimum of £30m.

As for the wage bill - they inherited a wage bill of around £125m per year. I'd estimate that over the last 2 summers, we might have cut that by around £20m but are probably only just starting to see the benefits of that given the pay-offs we had to give Jovanovic, Konchesky, Poulsen etc.

As for your other post about waiting before you panic - what exactly are you going to panic about? And this isn't specific to you - I've seen several Liverpool fans complaining about the same thing - what are you expectations of the owners? It seems like a lot of our support like to say that they'd hate to be like Chelsea or City but bitch and moan when our owners aren't willing to bankroll a massive spending spree. Unfortunately, like any other club not owned by a Sheikh or a Russian mafia boss, we have to make do with what money the club generates.
 
this_is_gav said:
I'm not sure Liverpool can sign them if they've only been released after our transfer window has closed.

If they could though, it might go some way to explain why they weren't exactly panicking yesterday. Drogba isn't much different to Carroll though - faster with feet (certainly thinking about moves anyway), but he's still the big physical presence Rodgers wasn't interested in.
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As aaron says, free agents can join at any time. And not that I think he's a suitable replacement or that I think we will get him but just Drogba's a big physical presence, that doesn't mean Rodgers wouldn't be interested.

The reason why Rodgers didn't want Carroll is not because he's big, it's because he's fairly limited with the ball on the ground and he's not very mobile.

edit: Anelka returning to Liverpool makes much more sense on paper though and more realistic.
 
drunkenmaster said:
I don't remember pointing out the team was built for Dempsey, it wasn't, if it was he'd have played center forward. He had a lot of chances and a lot of goals because of the way he played. He scored a lot of goals that were strikers chances, and he scored a lot that were more Lampard-style, as in late run into the box. He's a well rounded player and he's a very very good player, not because the team was focused on him at all. He's good in all aspects of his game and an intelligent player, his movement is fantastic which is what led to so many chances. He also had that simple thing, willingness to shoot, confidence to shoot. He shot a buttload, no more than other top scorers, and scored goals, you need players willing to shot.

Also Dembele only come good in the past 6 months, complete tosh, he's been EXCELLENT since the day he signed, he's only been noticed in the past 6 months, that is a very different thing. He started off upfront or wide, and has gone from being more of a proper striker to more of a proper midfielder, the whole time he was really just a playmaker and adapted to different positions. Again this is very simply because he's a intelligent player able to do what needs doing in a given position. Excellent vision, I think he can certain up his scoring rate, the only thing we've seen more in the past 6 months is that in a more central role he's more capable of winning the ball back and stiffling the opposition midfield than most thought he'd be good at.


For me Dembele is better than Modric, and Dempsey better than VDV for one reason, they fill the roles required better.

For all the games Spurs couldn't find a winning goal, a lot of that was because Modric is TOO deep, not involved enough and not shooting enough. Parker has the DM role covered, in that team with Parker back to shore up the defence Modric needed to be further forward, make more runs into the box and take more shots, he didn't. The odd wonder goal aside he wasn't nearly enough of a threat and Spurs so frequently needed that added threat from central midfield to overcome a stubborn defence. Dempsey scored more than VDV, works harder, does more defensively and is more versatile all things VDV suffered from not having in his game. When VDV was played on the wing, his lack of defending hurt the team, same goes for if he was played centrally and you needed him to help dominate midfield. He also wasn't enough of a striker to play that far forward.

He's great when he's on it, he's not particularly effective when he's not. Players who are technically less good, but fit in with the team better, make a better team. VDV isn't a striker, isn't a winger, isn't a midfielder, making his role/versatility/scope so limited its hard to fit him in a team. Modric while an excellent passer wasn't strong enough defensively to make him being so deep worthwhile, nor was he strong enough going forward to mean a more offensive central midfielder wouldn't work with the team better.

For me Dembele would alongside a very good defensive midfielder, offer more offense/variation to the offense and work better for the team. Same goes for Dempsey over VDV, left wing, right wing, striker, he'll work harder, longer and more often while offering the same or more of a goal threat than VDV.
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I caveated my analysis as the skeptical side of me. I dont think it is THAT dire but I do think it is a step down. Regarding my comment on Dembele as being prominent over the last 6 months- that referred him adapting to bossing the central midfield role.

Modric had a weak point with his goal scoring but what he was exceptional at was unlocking a defence and maintaining possession. He was indespensible to Spurs because he went to the defence and demanded the ball; at this point he never lost it and we distributed from shorter passes and not the long ball hoof. My concern for Dembele is that yes, he is dynamic and his goal today was superb, but is he able to dictate the tempo of the game for us? Can he start creating chances for others and be the player who demands the ball off the defence to stop the hoof to Ade?

If he doesnt then Siggy, Dembele and Dempsey all effectively are trying to occupy the same space. Maybe it will work; I dont know.

VdV similarly was superb at sparkling (and by that I mean doing something out of the ordinary and above whatever the team in general were producing). Modric and VdV created something out of nothing. This is what we needed in the big games. Bale was the other player blessed with the incredible. Today Dembele showed that he can do the same and I really hope that continues.

Players doing the simple thing well is something that great teams can exploit. The rhythm is not disrupted by them and the team combines in order to produce goals/performances. Spurs have not been a great team in my lieftime. We have, over the last decade, relied on individual brilliance and recently the strongest aspect of our identity is that of counter-attack. In Harry's reign, Spurs never bossed teams and opened them up with great teamwork. We always relied on speed and counter attacks to score our most memorable goals. This is essentially what stops us from being title contenders- we can score counter attacks, but when our own skills allow us to dominate an opposition, we have no idea how to combine in order to score and we drop points.

This was particularly evident in our run in where, we converted to 433, dominated midfields but the result was that weaker opposition were forced to sit back. At this point, we had no idea how to create that goal. The games where we scored, it was invariably on the counter attack.

IF AVB can convert our style into that of a great team, Dempsey, Dembele and Siggy may become integral to that system- Modric and VdV would have been equally suited and perhaps, in Modric's case, better. However, the time for creating that team was about 3 months ago. Now, during the season, we are dropping valuable points trying to evolve/undergo a revolution in identity and in the meantime we have absolutely nothing to fall back on.

Last week and today were classic cases in point. We relied on brilliance (something I fear Siggy and Dempsey lack) to get the goal. We were lethargic and devoid of identity as a team; Dembele came on and scored a superb individual effort but I think he will need time to adapt into the role of our main playmaker (even if it is because others will require time to understand his game).

Finally, AVB concerns me (I was an advocate) but now, second time round nothing suggests that he is capable of taking us forward (contrast this with Rodgers and Laudrup. Why was Sandro substituted and not Livermore? Why is Gallas STILL playing? Dawson is better, faster and our captain. Why didnt Ade or Dembele start? He seems a little confused as if the wholesale change that we have undergone is not revolution (which he was criticised for at Chelsea) if we play our crappy players... Bizarre.
 
BaZ87 said:
There's a fair few rumours going around claiming that our failure to land a striker on deadline day might cost Ian Ayre his job. I'm not sure how true they are or whether he, Rodgers or the owners are to blame though.



The club have spent around £52m net on transfers (and around £20m hiring/firing managers) since FSG took over. As for how much money has come out of their pocket - other than the money to buy the club of course, they've given the club at least £30m. Whether they've injected any more cash into the club, we won't know until the next lot of accounts are out but it's a minimum of £30m.

As for the wage bill - they inherited a wage bill of around £125m per year. I'd estimate that over the last 2 summers, we might have cut that by around £20m but are probably only just starting to see the benefits of that given the pay-offs we had to give Jovanovic, Konchesky, Poulsen etc.

As for your other post about waiting before you panic - what exactly are you going to panic about? And this isn't specific to you - I've seen several Liverpool fans complaining about the same thing - what are you expectations of the owners? It seems like a lot of our support like to say that they'd hate to be like Chelsea or City but bitch and moan when our owners aren't willing to bankroll a massive spending spree. Unfortunately, like any other club not owned by a Sheikh or a Russian mafia boss, we have to make do with what money the club generates.
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Couldn't the owners be to blame for not landing the striker due to being a bit tight? I mean as much as I dislike Ian Ayre they seem to be the guilty party in this.

Don't want to be Chelsea or City but some cash injection would be nice if we want to compete, granted we had a lot spent, but it was largely all on garbage and if they're only willing to do it once maybe they should have thought a bit harder before just buying british garbage and if it is causing them to be tight over £6M for a 29 year old didn't they pay £20m for a 27 year old winger? I was fairly happy with our business and felt we hadn't be mugs in this window for once until we got caught up in having limited strikers over a small fee, it was hardly City/Chelsea level spending, it was 6M, or 7M if we had to outpay spurs.

Also be interesting to see what happens re. the stadium, if anything.
 
BaZ87 said:
As aaron says, free agents can join at any time. And not that I think he's a suitable replacement or that I think we will get him but just Drogba's a big physical presence, that doesn't mean Rodgers wouldn't be interested.

The reason why Rodgers didn't want Carroll is not because he's big, it's because he's fairly limited with the ball on the ground and he's not very mobile.

edit: Anelka returning to Liverpool makes much more sense on paper though and more realistic.
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I always thought as well as Drogba being a pretty big presence he is mobile and good with the ball at his feet, what made him great.

I'd definately take Drogba, not too keen on Anelka.
 
Purdy said:
Couldn't the owners be to blame for not landing the striker due to being a bit tight? I mean as much as I dislike Ian Ayre they seem to be the guilty party in this.

Don't want to be Chelsea or City but some cash injection would be nice if we want to compete, granted we had a lot spent, but it was largely all on garbage and if they're only willing to do it once maybe they should have thought a bit harder before just buying british garbage and if it is causing them to be tight over £6M for a 29 year old didn't they pay £20m for a 27 year old winger? I was fairly happy with our business and felt we hadn't be mugs in this window for once until we got caught up in having limited strikers over a small fee, it was hardly City/Chelsea level spending, it was 6M, or 7M if we had to outpay spurs.

Also be interesting to see what happens re. the stadium, if anything.
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If, as Ben Smith says, the owners were willing to pay up to sign Sturridge on a permanent deal, it's not a case of being tight. The club have a policy where by they won't pay a meaningful amount for players over a certain age. That is something I'm sure Rodgers is/was fully aware of and something that I certainly think makes sense.

How much more cash do you want injected into the club and how much makes us a City/Chelsea type side? As I've said, they've injected at least £30m into the club (ignoring the cost of buying/clearing the debt) - I'm not sure if any other owner outside of City and Chelsea have done that. To put it into perspective, David Moores once loaned Liverpool some money to sign Kuyt - the loan was repaid and he charged the club interest too.

As for Dempey/Downing - you can't have it both ways. On one hand you can't complain about us overpaying and then on the other hand complain that we're underpaying. Even if Downing performed, the deal was too expensive and a mistake - that's not a reason to pay over what you think is a sensible amount again though.

And finally the stadium - are you not aware of what's been going on lately? No officially announcement has been made but it's all but certain that we're redeveloping. The time it takes for that to happen is partially out of the clubs hands though. The club are waiting on the council to finalise their regeneration plans for the surrounding area before they can begin - the signs are clear though:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2012/08/17/100252-31641040/
 
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