Am I in danger of being Ageist?

[Dis86]

Basically advertising for a new position at the minute. The work is very physically intensive, it involves a lot of climbing ladders, walking a fair distance each day, manual labour.

I've had a number of applicants for the position. One is pretty much bob-on and I've already interviewed him but he lacks experience due to his age.
Three of the others are late 50's and another two are early 60's. They're all perfectly qualified and obviously very experienced. The thing is the role is being created because the supervisor who currently does the job is in his late 50's and it's too physically demanding for him (fit, healthy, strong). Am I wrong to discount these other older gents because I don't believe they'll either physically be able to do the job at all, or at least not for any duration?
The work is pretty unique and so they won't have any prior experience therefore the first year at least will essentially be on the job training. I can't afford to have someone start and then leave because they can't hack it, especially as it will mean turning away the first guy who I know can but isn't as experienced.

 

[Diddums]

No, of course not. You hire by performance and merit, not age / sex / whatever.

 

[regulus]

Don't worry about 'ists' or 'iscms' or made up nonsense. Hire the right person for the job.

 

[Mason-]

Considering they're all going to need 1 year on the job training, surely just hire the younger guy.

 

[Dis86]

Considering they're all going to need 1 year on the job training, surely just hire the younger guy.

Yes, that's the logic but the others are more experienced. So on paper I should be hiring them, however the only reason not to is essentially because they're likely to be old and knackered!

 

[Diddums]

Yes, that's the logic but the others are more experienced. So on paper I should be hiring them, however the only reason not to is essentially because they're likely to be old and knackered!

And therefore not fit for the job. Don’t forget this is England, firing someone is a massive PITA. Go for the least chance to get stuck with a floppy old man.

 

[Dis86]

And therefore not fit for the job. Don’t forget this is England, firing someone is a massive PITA. Go for the least chance to get stuck with a floppy old man.

Tell me about it. Got 2 old duffers I can't get rid of, more expensive to make them redundant than to pay them until they retire.

 

[chroniclard]

Manual labour? how much experience does that require?

 

[Trifid]

Does the younger guy show a keen aptitude for the job? Hire on this basis.

 

[Raggs]

Tell me about it. Got 2 old duffers I can't get rid of, more expensive to make them redundant than to pay them until they retire.

no offence your being ageist there old duffers don't discount the older worker my old man was climbing ladders well into in his 70's doing decorating jobs he only packed it in because of his failing eyesight and because my mother put her foot down.

how hard is the graft are we talking non stop heavy lifting hod carrier type work ? or something less strenuous

 

[muon]

What will you say if they ask to know why they weren't hired? Presumably they knew what the job entailed and so believe themselves to be fit enough.

I think strictly, unless you have evidence to say these people aren't physically fit enough then you are being biased and making assumptions.

Realistically, no one will know and you'll bluff any questions. Does that make it okay? I'd personally say no.

 

[Dis86]

no offence your being ageist there old duffers don't discount the older worker my old man was climbing ladders well into in his 70's doing decorating jobs he only packed it in because of his failing eyesight and because my mother put her foot down.

how hard is the graft are we talking non stop heavy lifting hod carrier type work ? or something less strenuous

Being out in all weather conditions on vessels and onshore. Working at height in cherry pickers. Carrying loads in excess of 30kg. Manual electrical cable pull-in of 3+ phase commercial cables. Working at the top of cranes which have to be manually accessed via ladder. Some over 30m high.
Shifts are 10 to 12 hours. Often 60 hour weeks.

 

[foster grant]

But surely there will be a trial period for the job ..and surely you cant just not hire someone because they are 40, 50 or whatever

 

[Dis86]

But surely there will be a trial period for the job ..and surely you cant just not hire someone because they are 40, 50 or whatever

So I hire a 61 year old bloke. We find out in a week he can't do the job because of the physical aspects. I've wasted a week of my time. My supervisors time. A week of his time. I've also put his life at risk and the lives of his colleagues in that time.
Yes, the same could happen with a 25 year old, 30 year old etc. But I'm looking at the probability. Your average 60 year old just isn't as physically capable as your average 30 year old.

 

[muon]

So I hire a 61 year old bloke. We find out in a week he can't do the job because of the physical aspects. I've wasted a week of my time. My supervisors time. A week of his time. I've also put his life at risk and the lives of his colleagues in that time.
Yes, the same could happen with a 25 year old, 30 year old etc. But I'm looking at the probability. Your average 60 year old just isn't as physically capable as your average 30 year old.

Why not have a hiring process which actually tests suitability rather than just guessing off age?

Maybe ask about their physical activities. Is the 25 year old playing football 3 times a week and going to the gym etc?

Just think about what you'd think when you are in your late 50s and looking for a job. You apply for a job you think you are suitable for, and get dismissed because of being old rather than being unsuitable.

 

[Dis86]

Why not have a hiring process which actually tests suitability rather than just guessing off age?

Maybe ask about their physical activities. Is the 25 year old playing football 3 times a week and going to the gym etc?

How does one test how someone can do a job every day of every week without employing them?

There's a difference between having someone carry out a fitness test and have them carrying out a fitness test 8+ hours a day, every day of their working life. If I did what you're suggesting I don't think I'd ever have a successful applicant as they'd all tell me to do one.

 

[foster grant]

So I hire a 61 year old bloke. We find out in a week he can't do the job because of the physical aspects. I've wasted a week of my time. My supervisors time. A week of his time. I've also put his life at risk and the lives of his colleagues in that time.
Yes, the same could happen with a 25 year old, 30 year old etc. But I'm looking at the probability. Your average 60 year old just isn't as physically capable as your average 30 year old.

I wasnt making a dig at you Dis, I was just saying as an employer you have to give the same opportunity to anyone should they apply for the job ?

 

[muon]

How does one test how someone can do a job every day of every week without employing them?

There's a difference between having someone carry out a fitness test and have them carrying out a fitness test 8+ hours a day, every day of their working life. If I did what you're suggesting I don't think I'd ever have a successful applicant as they'd all tell me to do one.

By test I mean actually tries to find out if they are suitable be whatever appropriate means. Might be nothing more than a questionnaire.

Age is a protected characteristic, so you can't use probabilities. A woman is also less likely to be as physically capable as a man, but that wouldn't be okay to use for a hiring decision would it.

Ultimately you can quite easily hide your real reasons and it's unlikely anyone will find out.

 

[AhhBisto]

How can you be ageist hiring someone who's more suitable to the role?

You'd be ageist not hiring someone suitable for the role based on age which goes both ways.

Clearly it's a physically demanding job and I presume quite dangerous in the wrong hands. Hire the person who can physically do the job for a sustained amount of time, and probably has decent hearing and eyesight as that starts to deteriorate at age. It's not like you're hiring someone to do general store duties.

 

[Dis86]

By test I mean actually tries to find out if they are suitable be whatever appropriate means. Might be nothing more than a questionnaire.

The trouble is responses are completely subjective. If I ask 'are you physically fit' they might all say yes, because they all genuinely believe they are. I'm physically fit but I wouldn't want do that job day in day out, it would absolutely knacker me! And that's the thing. It's having a person who you can completely destroy physically one day and then have them get out of bed ready to go at it again the next morning. I just struggle to see that it's something someone of late middle age can reliably do.

@AhhBisto my storesmen are both 60!