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Another American cop thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by VincentHanna, Sep 7, 2018.

  1. TheVoice

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 15, 2005

    Posts: 20,835

    Location: Glasgow

    That's not why. British (not UK) police are unarmed because historically there's been fairly low levels of violence against police coupled with low volumes of gun/knife crime.

    That's beginning to change (or rather, has been changing for years) and is eroding the desire to continue to have a police service that increasingly finds itself unable to deal with spontaneous incidents of violence and/or involving weapons without, as you've said, having to retreat and wait for backup to arrive.

    The way the US does policing is fraught with problems, but expecting one police officer to retreat and contain a volatile situation like that is unreasonable and dangerous.
     
  2. Things change I've changed

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 27, 2005

    Posts: 11,643

    Location: The Orion Spur

    She has a hidden gun but instead chooses the scissors to be threatening?

    I've seen it too many times now, American cops often escalate the situation by being full on aggressive straight off the bat, they don't seem to have any skills to pacify the situation, instead it's "RARRRRRRR PUT WEAPON DOWN OR DIE!!!!! RARRRRRRRR!!!!, they jump right in and put themselves into often unnecessary immediate danger and that is supposed to justify the killing and be heroic? at times it feels/looks like they are taunting said criminal into retaliating, how about take a breather, evaluate the situation, is anyone in any immediate danger?, can said person be secured in the environment they are in, does this situation need to be do or die rectified within seconds?, can we back off and try to negotiate/calm the person down?, even speaking in a calm tone can make a big difference.

    I think carrying guns is a really bad idea because most people can't handle the power that comes with that, not having a gun forces you to think and deal with the situation differently, and often with better results and less casualties, you have a gun on you and you feel threatened what are you going to do? Reach for it, and the next thing you know someone is dead.
     
  3. Roar87

    Soldato

    Joined: May 10, 2012

    Posts: 5,758

    Location: Leeds

    There is no training you can give someone that will guarantee them safely being able to deal with an attacker who has a bladed weapon without risk to their safety or others that doesn't involve a firearm. Why do you even think that? It's actually worrying people think there's a way to safely deal with a knife attacker - just so we're clear, the answer is to either shoot them or run in every instance. Do not ever take on a knife attacker, you will die.
     
  4. Schlong&Stable

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 27, 2013

    Posts: 4,065

    She ran at him. The police officer should not have to risk his own life for the sake of for the sake of the aggressor. A taser might have been an option, sure, but they are not guaranteed to work so there's no reason for the officer to risk his own neck for that.
     
  5. NVP

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2007

    Posts: 6,515

    Ok.... were talking about a crazy little old lady with scissors, not a ninja with dagger :confused:

    Slap them out her hand then slap her in the face.
     
  6. deuse

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 17, 2007

    Posts: 19,318

    Location: Solihull-Florida


    Just watched Live PD and a guy gave an officer is driving licence(much tamer than scissors ) Then the next min he pulls out a gun and fires
    4 times at the officer who was hit.

    You just never know what'd going to happen.
     
  7. Schlong&Stable

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 27, 2013

    Posts: 4,065

    One mistake and you're potentially suffering life changing or fatal injuries. I'd rather just shoot them.
     
  8. TheVoice

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 15, 2005

    Posts: 20,835

    Location: Glasgow

    She was 45 and exhibiting a lot of signs of being under heavy influence of drugs. She wasn't a confused old pensioner who'd wandered into the wrong building and was trying to phone home.
     
  9. NVP

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2007

    Posts: 6,515

    What drugs???
     
  10. deuse

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 17, 2007

    Posts: 19,318

    Location: Solihull-Florida

    Did you not read his post?
    "signs of being under heavy influence of drugs"
     
  11. Roar87

    Soldato

    Joined: May 10, 2012

    Posts: 5,758

    Location: Leeds

    There's a lot of dead US Police officers who at no point took a breather but were killed anyway, they can't take a breather. You have no idea how quickly situations escalate, and then you're dead. If you threaten a US Police officer lethal force is going to be used against you, because they cannot risk their own lives, no one is paid enough to do that. All you have to do is obey commands when given, if you do that in 99.999% of circumstances you're going to be fine. Police and Americans in general are polite and friendly, more so than in the UK, they just don't play games when it comes to breaking the law. To me that's straight forward and how it should be.
     
  12. NVP

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2007

    Posts: 6,515

    What drugs???
    If he suspects she's under the influence there must be stronger signs he associates with certain drugs, I'm asking what drugs he thinks this lady is on.


    It's such an easy answer, oh they're on drugs look at them, said by most people without an idea.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  13. NVP

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2007

    Posts: 6,515

    Because other cops have been shot by violent criminals I'm gonna pull my gun on this upset lady with scissors. Okey dokey.
     
  14. deuse

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 17, 2007

    Posts: 19,318

    Location: Solihull-Florida


    There is something wrong with you.

    It's clear you haven't seen any of the videos posted in this forum or you would understand.
    But got to ask. How many years did you live in the US?
     
  15. NVP

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2007

    Posts: 6,515

    No, I'm afraid the problem is not mine but a culture of violence and intimidation so engrained in a system it no longer protects and serves but abuses and controls.

    Answering violence with violence is not smart, it does nothing to calm situations or build any form of rapport with the person being engaged.

    I'm not sure what videos you're talking about as so many incidents have occurred in the land of the free that any select few videos posted online could be anomalous or a window so you'll have to clarify what you mean.
     
  16. Burnsy2023

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Nov 17, 2003

    Posts: 36,350

    Location: Southampton, UK

    I think my view on the scissors video is that the officer approached the situation which made the use of force almost inevitable. US officers don't understand the deescalation techniques that British officers use.

    The signs that someone is either on illicit drugs or having a mental health crisis can be similar. Neither directly mean that they're going to be a threat, just that they are likely to be more unpredictable and a different approach is required. I think I can give a pretty informed opinion on what I would differently as I've been in similar situations.

    Firstly, the fact the lady looks like she has MH or drugs issues is clear from the outset. I would not shout an order for her to put the scissors down - that wasn't and was always unlikely to be effective. Many people on MH episodes have sensory overload as it is, they struggle to comprehend even more stimuli, especially when it's scary. I would have approached using the desk as a barrier for my safety - I'd make sure that even if she unexpectedly lunged that I would have space to react. I would have spoken softly and introduced myself. My first task would be simply to learn her name, build a rapport and get her to talk. Once we've done that, I'd simply ask her to put the scissors down. The 5 step appeal is a model which is taught to all British officers:

    I'd also be asking for officers with shields to be attending as we have tactics to disarm people with edged weapons with them. My chat would attempt to buy enough time for them to get kitted up and get to me. Preemptive Taser over the counter is also an option where failure of the barbs to get still gives the officer time to replan.

    Essentially, the way the officer communicates will often be enough to make the use of force unnecessary. Good tactical communications were completely absent from the video - the communication must be tailored to the person being communicated with and there was no attempt to change his methods. There is a well placed barrier to allow engagement with lesser risk which also wasn't used.

    The officer's failure to communicate meant force was the only option left, which made the shoot inevitable.
     
  17. Nasher

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 22, 2006

    Posts: 14,747

    US cops seem to go in to everything with guns drawn seemingly, that puts people even more on edge. These is to much of a gun culture where people just like waving them around.
     
  18. deuse

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 17, 2007

    Posts: 19,318

    Location: Solihull-Florida


    Well. If you post in a thread. Should you not read from page one?
    That would be a yes.And you have never lived in the US I take it.
     
  19. NVP

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 6, 2007

    Posts: 6,515

    So for you, you have to live there to be able to understand the most widely publicised, filmed, journalled country on the planet?

    I have been following the thread for as long as it's been around, which is quite some time so please enlighten me as to the specifics of which you say I don't understand, I just asked for clarification of what you meant so I can give you a reply.
     
  20. Malevolence

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 21, 2011

    Posts: 13,417

    Location: Miercna rīce

    Imagine just minding your own business, eating your breakfast that you've just bought from the take-away on the station as you wait for the train to work like you do everyday and then you get arrested for eating.



    The USA, truly the land of the free.