Anyone been on the ketogenic diet long term?

[RxR]

A recent live case study of four of the most popular diets appeared on Aussie tv recently (on the national broadcaster). They had 4 or 5 couples each trying a different diet (paleo, keto, 5/2, flexitarian, etc). The flexitarian diet came out on top - most kg's lost, most health improvements, easiest to stick to.

The show was "Ask the Doctor"'- now on abc.net.au ivew

 

[NVP]

No I didn't ask for evidence that sugar is addictive. I asked the question in this post - why are you getting so defensive over a simple question being asked?:

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/33098123/

"Is there evidence to suggest people have more success with sustaining this diet on an ongoing basis vs other diets that involve cutting calories?"

Its a reasonable question in reply to your post but instead of answering you've just been moaning about the fact I asked it which seems to indicate that you're making claims you don't really know are true or not. It wasn't a trick question by the way - I was genuinely interested but instead you just took offence at being asked.

Just wow. You know your question didn't match my post which is why I said to google for the answers you seek.

I'm not asking him to run off and go fetch peer reviews journals but he could have linked to wherever he/she picked up the infoetc

Bloody hell man. I didn't need a blog to tell me sugar is addictive. I'm pretty sure they taught us that at school.

I am quite interested in finding good diets (not for weight loss per se but just in general, I'm basically at the upper limit of the normal weight range/BMI at the moment though was a bit overweight before and very briefly obese at one point last year which prompted me to sort it out as I used to be very fit)

After I slipped my first disc back in 2010 I needed to lose weight and I dropped from 18.5 to 14st in 3 months from a form of Keto* and having a home gym - the lack of sugar really helped me control my snacking and having the gym at home helped me stick to routines (being able to use it freely around my work/play schedule).

*I say form of as I wasnt specifically following Keto back then as I wasnt aware of it, I was just following medical advice from my sister. I still had some sugar in the form of homemade ORS I drank whilst lifting.

 

[secretspy]

Cutting out the sugar and carbs completely removes the addiction/cravings for more and helps you maintain control over your eating habits.

Once sugar is involved it becomes harder to control, so for those with weak will moderation will never do and the extreme of Keto works best.

Is there evidence to suggest people have more success with sustaining this diet on an ongoing basis vs other diets that involve cutting calories?

I really don't see the issue with dowie's question It's been stated the Keto diet works best for those of us who are weak willed. The question is asking if there are studies to support that claim you've just made. I.e. why would Keto work better than a different diet?

"Moderation will never do and the extreme of Keto works best"

That's a pretty clear statement you've made. If I said to people in a general conversation, Paleo is best for achieving healthy eating habits etc I wouldn't be surprised if I was then asked WHY. What's my source? Personal experience? Online research?

Keto wouldn't work best for me because it's including dairy, something I prefer to avoid.

I didn't find I craved sugar when I did Paleo but I did struggle with sticking to it due to how restrictive it was. (At the time I was also not allowed things like tomatoes/nightshades so I was even more reduced with options for meals.)

I actually found the app Habitbull good for keeping on track with not having things like sweets and chocolate as you can see your progress and how well you're doing. Ok, yes there is still an element of sugar in some foods that I was eating but it was a start

 

[JBuk]

You don't need to eat dairy on a keto diet

You can eat foods such as meat, fish, certain vegs, nuts, healthy oils, eggs

 

[NVP]

I really don't see the issue with dowie's question It's been stated the Keto diet works best for those of us who are weak willed. The question is asking if there are studies to support that claim you've just made. I.e. why would Keto work better than a different diet?

"Moderation will never do and the extreme of Keto works best"

That's a pretty clear statement you've made. If I said to people in a general conversation, Paleo is best for achieving healthy eating habits etc I wouldn't be surprised if I was then asked WHY. What's my source? Personal experience? Online research?

My post was about weak willed people, dowies question was regarding the general diets.

The "why" is already in my post.

My knowledge is from common sense, cut out the addictive component and you then have better control.

 

[secretspy]

My post was about weak willed people, dowies question was regarding the general diets.

The "why" is already in my post.

My knowledge is from common sense, cut out the addictive component and you then have better control.

But you specified that keto works best.

Anyone could use common sense in their eating habits and cut out sugar but not specifically be following Keto.

What type of sugar are you referring to? All sugars or just processed?

Why cut out all carbs? What is the benefit of Keto specifically vs. say paleo which allows certain carbs or following SCD diet

 

[SexyGreyFox]

I personally found it more sustainable , Currently I eat low carb but not specifically keto and I find this easily sustainable too as I feel satiated on less food and often don’t feel hungry for a long time after eating.

Quite a few years ago the BBC did a 12 month test on the four major diets at the time including Atkins Diet (low carb).
After 12 months the results were in and people lost the most weight on Atkins because they didn't eat as much.

 

[LiE]

Couldn’t do Keto, carbs are amazing and allow me to train hard in the gym. I have a decent low body fat as well.

 

[dizzy078]

I did keto for my wedding earlier this year. Weight loss was very fast, I was impressed. I wasn't hungry except meal times and definitely ate smaller portions. I did have 'keto flu' for first 1-2 weeks though. Headaches, very lethargic. Got past that & started feeling a lot better. Could never regularly go no 2 though (which was never a problem for me, normally a once a day person).

After the wedding I basically packed it in. I do find it hard to follow. No beer? Gin & slimline tonic not that fun to drink on nights out. Light beer tastes like crap, and still around 4g carbs per bottle. I missed pasta/bread too, although I now notice how much eating bread bloats me. Also I know how bad sugar is but I do enjoy eating it. Love a pudding! I've put on about half the weight I lost on keto. I'm not exactly overweight though, went from 13 and a half stone to 12 and a half on the diet. I'm 6ft 2.

I am thinking about doing it again in the new year.

 

[krooton]

But you specified that keto works best.

Anyone could use common sense in their eating habits and cut out sugar but not specifically be following Keto.

What type of sugar are you referring to? All sugars or just processed?

Why cut out all carbs? What is the benefit of Keto specifically vs. say paleo which allows certain carbs or following SCD diet

Well it isn't zero carb, it is keeping carbs low enough to induce ketosis, and that varies from person to person, but the general guide is under 25g carbs per day would trigger ketosis in the majority of people.

The benefits again depend on the person, as it doesn't work for everyone, but for me personally it was:

Significantly improved quality of sleep vs when I eat carbs.
Following on from that, waking up with clear head and no early-morning grogginess.
Meals were legit satiating and scuppered snacking cravings.
Stable energy levels throughout the day, no afternoon crash which I am prone to when on carbs.
A general improved clarity and focus of thought, possibly due to the energy level thing.

Never suffered from 'keto-flu' as I made sure my start was a well hydrated one with plenty of electrolytes that I would lose due to the initial loss of water-weight as I burnt through glycogen stores.

It was also really fun developing home-made low-carb ice-cream

It certainly isn't for everyone, and requires a certain amount of mental fortitude to get going, but it worked a treat for the missus and me.

 

[Gimli]

My knowledge is from common sense, cut out the addictive component and you then have better control.

I've said it already, sugar is NOT addictive. It's just very palatable. Nobody sacrificed a normal meal so they could buy a packet of Tate sugar and snort it. If sugar was addictive then why is it people bang back the Malteasers and cakes but not an abundance of fruit like apples, oranges, bananas? All of which are quite high in sugar...

@dowie and anybody else who cares. This is a study on the keto diet and explains why it can be quite sustainable for some people: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=18175736 . Essentially cutting out/eating low carbs means people end up eating more protein and fat, both of which are highly satiating so leads to a lot of people eating less calories on average. Less calories eaten, good chance they're in a deficit and therefore lose weight.

 

[FortuitousFluke]

I've been doing keto for the last few weeks, mainly with the aim of achieving weight loss as I've put on two stone since I stopped cycling to work. I've lost 6 pounds so far which is great, but I've got to say after the initial "carb flu" phase I've also found I feel much healthier and have a lot more energy than I did on my normal, quite carb heavy diet. I don't know whether this is just about eliminating the peaks and crashes or whether it's the diet overall but I think I will stick with it, or at least move to low carb after my initial weight loss goals have been achieved.

 

[MadMossy]

I did keto previously for a few years, lost 6 some in the first year, from 18 to 12, then gained a stone weight lifting to a more manageable 13st @ 183cm.

I stopped keto about 4 years ago and went back to a lazy diet where I gained most of that weight back. I'm now on a flexitarian diet and doing 4+ hours of cardio a week and down a couple stone so far.

Unsure if it's diet or exercise that had had the most impact yet only time will tell.

 

[Gimli]

Unsure if it's diet or exercise that had had the most impact yet only time will tell.

It's likely going to be your diet mostly, depending on what you're eating plant based food is often lower calorie (there are some exceptions, especially if oil is involved). Depending on what you're doing cardio wise, one hour on the treadmill could only be burning 300 calories. So 4 hours a week would only be burning 1200kcals. It takes roughly a deficit of 3500kcal to lose a pound so the exercise alone is minimal (it does help increase the size of the deficit though!). Most treadmills you can put in your weight and it'll tell you the calories you've burned, it's not the most accurate but provided you use the same brand/type of treadmill it's consistent so is useful for monitoring and making changes.

Cardio obviously has other health benefits too though so don't think I'm saying you're wasting your time!

 

[NVP]

I've said it already, sugar is NOT addictive. It's just very palatable.

Food addiction
A food addiction or eating addiction is a behavioral addiction that is characterized by the compulsive consumption of palatable foods – the types of food which markedly activate the reward system in humans and other animals – despite adverse consequences.

 

[Gimli]

Food addiction
A food addiction or eating addiction is a behavioral addiction that is characterized by the compulsive consumption of palatable foods – the types of food which markedly activate the reward system in humans and other animals – despite adverse consequences.

That type of addiction normally refers to a physical need/dependency on the food. I expect most of the people in the thread didn't start getting a nervous twitch when they didn't get their hit of sugar in their tea. Just because it says it on Wikipedia doesn't mean it's fact...

We find little evidence to support sugar addiction in humans, and findings from the animal literature suggest that addiction-like behaviours, such as bingeing, occur only in the context of intermittent access to sugar. These behaviours likely arise from intermittent access to sweet tasting or highly palatable foods, not the neurochemical effects of sugar.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5174153/ - Sugar addiction: the state of the science

 

[krooton]

That type of addiction normally refers to a physical need/dependency on the food. I expect most of the people in the thread didn't start getting a nervous twitch when they didn't get their hit of sugar in their tea.

Not all addiction has to be crackhead levels of addiction though.

Not ever being able to turn down a choccie that is offered to you is still a level of addiction.

Some people can get by with out-of-sight-out-of-mind, but then the sheer availability of junk makes even that tricky to maintain.

 

[NVP]

That type of addiction normally refers to a physical need/dependency on the food. I expect most of the people in the thread didn't start getting a nervous twitch when they didn't get their hit of sugar in their tea. Just because it says it on Wikipedia doesn't mean it's fact...

A number of studies have found that sugar affects the brain the same way that addictive substances such as nicotine, cocaine, and morphine do. With the average American consuming 22 to 30 teaspoons a day — considerably more than the recommended maximum of 6 teaspoons — some withdrawal symptoms are to be expected.

Our brains have a reward system that helps us survive as a species. Food is a natural reward, and consuming something sweet stimulates our brain’s reward system.

Though experts are still divided on whether sugar addiction is a real thing, animal and human studies have found that sugar triggers the release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens — the same area of the brain implicated in response to heroin and cocaine.

Eating sugar regularly changes your brain so that it becomes tolerant to the sugar, causing you to require more to get the same effect.

Sugar has also been shown to cause the release of endogenous opioids in the brain, which leads to a rush similar to that experienced when a person injects heroin. All of this leads to a vicious cycle of cravings and needing more sugar to feel good.

When you cut out sugar, your cravings get more intense and you experience withdrawal symptoms — at least at first.

The symptoms of sugar withdrawal


Sugar detox can cause unpleasant physical and mental symptoms. How the body reacts to quitting sugar is different for everyone. Which symptoms you experience and the severity of these symptoms depend on how much sugar you were consuming.

Withdrawal symptoms can last from a few days to two weeks. The longer your body goes without sugar, the less intense your symptoms and cravings for sugar will be.

You may find that your symptoms are worse at certain times of the day, such as between meals. Stress is also known to trigger cravings for sugar, so you may find your symptoms seem worse during times of stress.

Mental symptoms
Sugar detox can cause a number of emotional and mental symptoms. These include:

• Depression. Feeling down is a common sugar withdrawal symptom. Along with low mood, you may also notice a lack of enjoyment in things you once found pleasurable.
• Anxiety. Feelings of anxiousness may also be accompanied by nervousness, restlessness, and irritability. You may feel like you have less patience than usual and are on edge.
• Changes in sleep patterns. Some people experience changes in their sleep when detoxing from sugar. You might find it hard to fall asleep or stay asleep through the night.
• Cognitive issues. You may find it difficult to concentrate when you quit sugar. This can cause you to forget things and make it hard to focus on tasks, such as work or school.
• Cravings. Along with craving sugar, you may find yourself craving other foods, such as carbohydrates like bread, pasta, and potato chips.

Physical symptoms
Headache is one of the most common side effects of sugar detox, along with feeling physically rundown. Other possible physical withdrawal symptoms include:

• light-headedness and dizziness
• nausea
• tingling
• fatigue

Giving up sugar can make you feel lousy, but rest assured, it will get better if you stick to your sugar detox.

Source

Nothing about twitching in there. You seem hard-lined on suppressing the term addiction from sugar when it appears perfectly acceptable and quite commonly used across many articles and even subject headings.

 

[MikeTheNative]

The best diet is the one that you can stick to, some people find fasting best, some keto, some vegan and some calorie counting etc. Perhaps one might be percentages better than another but a balanced varied diet is always going to be better than an unbalanced keto and so forth.
Basically just eat whatever works for you as long as it's balanced and healthy.

 

[Gimli]

Not all addiction has to be crackhead levels of addiction though.

Not ever being able to turn down a choccie that is offered to you is still a level of addiction.

Some people can get by with out-of-sight-out-of-mind, but then the sheer availability of junk makes even that tricky to maintain.

I'll admit addiction is something I'd like to educate myself on more but you sort of made my point there. When it comes to food most people wouldn't eat it if it wasn't there. If sugar containing food suddenly disappeared people wouldn't start panicking (though they wouldn't be impressed), it's mostly down to lack of willpower when we're surrounded by all the sweet stuff.

It just tastes too good... I know I'd prefer a donut to a carrot.

Source

Nothing about twitching in there. You seem hard-lined on suppressing the term addiction from sugar when it appears perfectly acceptable and quite commonly used across many articles and even subject headings.

I did find the article before you quoted the source yourself, at first I didn't think it cited any studies that support sugar addiction but I did find one which was quite interesting:

Evidence supporting features of addiction to sucrose come mainly from studies in experimental animals (7). Withdrawal from a “sugar-rich” diet is associated with behavior suggestive of “withdrawal” symptoms. Clinical support for this idea comes from a study by Drewnowski et al. (20), who used naloxone to block opioid receptors in women who were binge eaters and those who were not. In the binge eaters, naloxone reduced the preference for sweet taste and the actual amounts consumed.

which led to (source)

The opiate antagonist naltrexone was recently reported to suppress cravings for alcohol and to prevent relapse in recovering alcoholics (33). It may be that the same physiological mechanisms are involved in mediating food preference and drug reward. The present data support the hypothesis that food selection among binge eaters may be influenced by the endogenous opiate peptide system, and suggest that heightened preferences for some palatable foods such as chocolate may be effectively reduced by opiate blockade.

Which again is rather interesting. So essentially the antagonist blocks part of the brain that craves sweetness, all the studies I've read so far seem hesitant to outright state sugar is addictive, though they do mention similarities. Interesting reading.