Anyone been on the ketogenic diet long term?

[Somnambulist]

Nobody’s really mentioned sugar in all this and insulin/diabetes. This way of strict low carb eating for me is partly for weight loss and partly to bring blood sugar under control. Previously I’d eat maybe 200g carbs each day which is way too much. Now it’s less than 20g. I think you could easily manage less than 130g which is the recommendation I’ve seen in eating guidelines when you don’t need to lose any weight but 50g is probably even better to stave off insulin resistance. That’s about two rounds of bread!

The evidence is that for diabetes (Type 2) the biggest thing you can do to improve blood sugar control is getting to a healthy weight and doing more exercise. There have been various studies looking at different carbohydrate intake levels whilst dieting and the effect this has... and results wise anything from low to moderate works, but by the nature of weight loss, carbohydrate tends to be the macronutrient that's lowered the most anyway due to the usefulness and necessity of protein (muscle-sparing, most satiating, etc) and fat. So whilst you don't have to go ketogenic, you'll probably end up low to low-ish anyway, and what carbs you do eat should be the whole foods sort that go with a mixed meal nicely.

One thing you don't have to worry about is 'The Insulin Hypothesis' (Gary Taubes, carbs make you fat etc) which will never make it past the hypothesis stage because it doesn't work from an actual biochem perspective, and this has been born out in various metabolic ward studies... some of which were funded by those looking to prove the hypothesis themselves in a spectacular own-goal, as well as the observational evidence of a huge number of populations who eat very high carb diets and have low rates of obesity and great health markers.

 

[ic1male]

as well as the observational evidence of a huge number of populations who eat very high carb diets and have low rates of obesity and great health markers.

Can you think of any such populations? I'm trying to think - maybe Japan - they eat a lot of rice but also a lot of fish. China eat a lot of rice, they are starting with a diabetes epidemic. Italy - not as much pasta/meat as we do and once again more fish. Maybe fish is the key?

 

[MikeTheNative]

^

And most of those junk foods contain high levels of fat too. Sweet and rich is a tasty combination...

Every diet craze always starts out with a premise that the reason you're overweight/unhealthy isn't because of over-consumption of hyper-caloric, hyper-palatable processed foods, low in micronutrients and fibre, and a distinct lack of whole foods, but that it's something else's fault - protein, fat, carbs, sugar, wheat, dairy... and so nearly every media-promoted diet book you'll find in Waterstones involves restriction of certain foods or food groups regardless of people's dietary preference (hence why people succeed and fail to varying degrees on all different kinds of diets when calories are restricted). It's always about exclusion, where as in reality dietary variety and inclusion is one of the most important things, since rigid diets tend to be the ones with the highest failure rates.

Meanwhile you have whole populations with great health-markers who eat all kinds of different diets high in various different things depending on what part of the world they're from, bodybuilders getting crazy lean eating everything under the sun as long as they're respecting energy intake relative to energy expenditure and macro-nutrient distribution, and general health/fitness folk like me who eat a bunch of whole foods, but also eat a little processed stuff and still walk around with a six pack, feel great and have a good relationship with food because the reality about nutrition isn't that exciting and it's all down to diets as a whole rather than any individual food or even meal in isolation.

Since you can't like posts on here, I'm just going to quote and just sat THIS.

 

[Somnambulist]

Can you think of any such populations? I'm trying to think - maybe Japan - they eat a lot of rice but also a lot of fish. China eat a lot of rice, they are starting with a diabetes epidemic. Italy - not as much pasta/meat as we do and once again more fish. Maybe fish is the key?

Pretty much all the Blue Zone diets are high in carbohydrates (as in they make up the biggest % of their caloric intake) although obviously from whole foods which are usually locally sourced. Then you have smaller populations like the Kitavans, Kuna, Massas, Tukisenta (up to 94.6% of their calories from carbs), Bantu etc.

The main thing to remember is humans can do well on a variety of diets as long as the quality of the food they're eating is high, and it's being eaten in quantities that promote weight maintenance. Diets high in processed food with added sugars and fats - with the Standard American Diet being the posterboy example of this - tick neither of those boxes.

As for China, the more developed countries become, the trend that manifests itself is the populations levels of activity go down and the availability and consumption of processed food goes up.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

I think you were a bit hasty there Mods.
I know Vanessa sounded like a sales woman but all she has done is link to a Gordon Ramsey pasta making video

 

[Space Monkey]

I think you were a bit hasty there Mods.
I know Vanessa sounded like a sales woman but all she has done is link to a Gordon Ramsey pasta making video

And another business link in the text! It was a spam post

 

[Mobius 1]

I’d like to try this.. but the thought of cutting out beers with the mates on a weekend sort of puts me off. :/

 

[Alex_6n2]

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/low-carb-diet/

Hopefully you're all avoiding increases to your Cholesterol and ketoacidosis

 

[Roar87]

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/low-carb-diet/

Hopefully you're all avoiding increases to your Cholesterol and ketoacidosis

Article just assumes people doing keto aren't also counting calories and acts as if it's a revelation that you also need to count calories, not sure why

 

[Gimli]

Article just assumes people doing keto aren't also counting calories and acts as if it's a revelation that you also need to count calories, not sure why

I've not read the article but thought it worth mentioning most people I know who follow or have followed the keto diet don't track calories at all. That doesn't mean everybody who follows the keto diet doesn't, but I'm not sure what percentage do.

 

[PermaChanged]

I’d like to try this.. but the thought of cutting out beers with the mates on a weekend sort of puts me off. :/

Drink spirits if you can't give up the beer

 

[Alex_6n2]

Article just assumes people doing keto aren't also counting calories and acts as if it's a revelation that you also need to count calories, not sure why

The point is; eliminating carbohydrates doesn't causes you to lose weight, running a caloric deficit does.

A keto diet is not more effective for weight loss if calories remain consistent versus alternatives. There are however potential did-benefits to a keto diet vs eating a healthy balance of whole foods.

If eating a low carb diet helps you consistently maintain a calorie deficit, that's great. But don't kid yourself it's anything other than just another way to eat less.

 

[ic1male]

I’m wondering why keto is Low Carbohydrate High Fat (LHCF) - more specifically for overweight people. The plan I follow on Diet Doctor is constantly telling you to eat until you feel full. And if you are hungry then you didn’t eat enough fat at the last meal and to add more on the next one.

But why do they tell you to do this when you have all that fat around your belly to use? Is it because a low carb, low fat diet will make people go up the wall with hunger and cravings? I sort of feel like that because I don’t count calories and I also don’t eat much fat because I don’t particularly like covering everything in mayo or butter.

If a lot of people feel hungry then they’re likely to give up and go back to donuts and cake? What if you can just ride those hunger waves out, as I’m trying to. Will your body just use its own fat and therefore you lose weight faster?

This all ends up back as calories in vs out as people in here say and the “keto experts” dismiss. I’ve seen the bariatric surgeon on “My 600-lb life” prescribes a 1200 calorie low carb, low fat, normal protein diet for his patients to lose weight quick to ready them for surgery. Maybe 1200 calories is OK for 600lb people but too low for 250lbers.

The only way I see true LCHF eating is you are already at your target weight and you need to add fat for fuel because you haven’t got any stored.

 

[Vidar]

Look as someone who's gone onto the lchf diet because I was diagnosed as type 2 diabetic all I can say is it does work. 5 stone lost in 3 months and now in remission.

I've started eating a more balanced diet since and my body isn't getting on with it at all. I much prefer eating keto.

Gained 6lbs too even though I'm eating less, go figure

 

[Psymonkee]

If a lot of people feel hungry then they’re likely to give up and go back to donuts and cake? What if you can just ride those hunger waves out, as I’m trying to. Will your body just use its own fat and therefore you lose weight faster?

That's the theory and riding out the hunger should do the trick. The trick is to eat fat to satiety but you need to learn what that feels like. Very tough to learn and even harder to tell others.

In news from me I've come off the diet recently partly due to some holiday/going to shows making it hard at best and lack of willpower. The result? I feel terrible/bloated and hungry all the time. Going right back to it. Exception incoming for birthday/christmas though!

 

[SexyGreyFox]

What if you can just ride those hunger waves out, as I’m trying to

Back in the 80s I used to love the hunger pains because that's when I knew my body was eating my excess fats.
Over the last 3 weeks I've lost 12lbs and feeling the hunger pains again but I'm trying to enjoy them.

 

[ic1male]

And do any of you track your carbs continuously? What amount do you eat and do you go with total or net?

 

[Psymonkee]

Don't really track anything. I probably should but I'm lazy. Oddly that shows in my physical state :/

 

[Somnambulist]

And do any of you track your carbs continuously? What amount do you eat and do you go with total or net?

Currently around 350g/1400kcals worth a day (train x5 a week and average about 10km worth of steps per day), and I just go by total. That's on a gentle caloric surplus, when I'm in a fat-loss phase it's the easiest thing to reduce and goes down to 150g-ish. Don't track to a tee but I've been doing it long enough to track loosely and end up in the right ballpark.