Are India and Pakistan about to have another showdown?

Dis86 · 27 Feb 2019 at 16:45

Psycho Sonny said:
Pakistan is well known for being above board and honest. So I believe them totally when they say they are against terrorism. It was an honest mistake that they have been harboring and protecting terrorists for decades.

Pretty much most terrorist incidents if not all in india for the past 50 years have been committed by pakistanis or linked to them.

And let's not forget...where was the most wanted man in the world hiding?

Shocky-FM · 27 Feb 2019 at 16:51

If Pakistan is harbouring terrorists then it's difficult to support retaliation, that said India should be sharing their intelligence so Pakistan can deal with the camps themselves, assuming they don't already know about them which is hard to believe., and if they do know but refuse to do anything about then i have no sympathy at all for them.

Vita · 27 Feb 2019 at 16:56

dowie said:
You're delusional if you think taking anything he says at face value is a good idea at the moment given his current situation.

Knowing how strongly these people love their country. They rather die then lie.

Again - since this is rather difficult for you I'll reiterate - you made a claim, your claim was that he'd been treated with "respect and dignity" - this claim is nonsense, firstly there is the footage of him getting a beating upon being captured, second he's made to sit in front of the cameras which goes against the Geneva convention in which signatories are supposed to protect prisoners from: "acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity". While parading someone through the streets was perhaps what was on the minds of people at the time brining prisoners out for the cameras is the modern day equivalent.

As far as I’m aware the video recordings, pictures were not from PAF at first. They were from civilians uploading to social media.

None of this is particularly relevant to the point I took issue with - namely your claim that he had been treated with respect and dignity - a claim that is clearly false.

Im not denying that he didn’t get hit across his head when they initially captured him as shown on video but that was by civilians, and it was wrong to do. The PAK army was telling them to stop and not to hit him.

I mean once you capture a guy that will possibly attack your country, you won’t invite him to have a go on your missus after will you?

India said after the strike that they hit the biggest terrorist training camp in Pakistani history. Pakistan replied they hit an empty area of forest and damaged some trees. So someone is fibbing.

Not surprised since the Indian elections are coming up.

IronWarrior · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:02

Shocky-FM said:
If Pakistan is harbouring terrorists.

Well they did harbour Mr Bin Laden for many years.

Psycho Sonny · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:06

Shocky-FM said:
If Pakistan is harbouring terrorists then it's difficult to support retaliation, that said India should be sharing their intelligence so Pakistan can deal with the camps themselves, assuming they don't already know about them which is hard to believe., and if they do know but refuse to do anything about then i have no sympathy at all for them.

of course they are harbouring terrorists much like a lot of the middle east. publically it will always be denied for obvious reasons but behind closed doors they support them.

dowie · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:06

Vita said:
As far as I’m aware the video recordings, pictures were not from PAF at first. They were from civilians uploading to social media.

I'm referring to the interview!!! He's already in custody at that point.

Im not denying that he didn’t get hit across his head when they initially captured him as shown on video but that was by civilians, and it was wrong to do. The PAK army was telling them to stop and not to hit him.

And we're back with the - well at least they didn't let them kill him argument...

All rather irrelevant - the point was simply that you made a claim re: him being treated with dignity and respect and that claim is clearly false....

Quoting me yet again with the same weak arguments about the beating not being too bad, the soldiers making sure it didn't go too far/making a half assed effort to put a stop to it etc.. doesn't change that.

Malkavian · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:08

Hades said:
She's Pakistani. I am English.

My GF is Indian. Let's do lunch.

Rroff · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:10

Vita said:
Not surprised since the Indian elections are coming up.

Seems a lot of the initial belligerence (albeit in response to an attack) was for domestic consumption, not expecting much of a response, and it has backfired. This is what concerns me as there are elements on both sides who are backing themselves into corners they can't easily back down from.

Vita · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:10

I give up. Seems like some people just don’t want to understand.

Rroff · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:21

From my perspective your side of the argument was barely any more objective than dowie's. They've (as in officially) not exactly mistreated him and the (seemingly minor fortunately) harm that did come to him before that wasn't in the hands of the military or apparently tacitly allowed by the military through inaction, etc. but on the other hand respect and dignity is pushing it a bit.

Yas786 · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:31

dowie said:
I think you've got some low standards for "respect and dignity" - let the locals give him a beating then bring him out for the cameras?

Here he is being captured:

https://twitter.com/YogiAdityanath_/status/1100746730839134208

Oh well I guess at least they didn't let them kill him.

And here’s a video of him praising the Pakistani armed forces that captured him
https://youtu.be/OcD0ugy1tRc

Even made him a cup of tea as well

dowie · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:34

Yas786 said:
And here’s a video of him praising the Pakistani armed forces that captured him
https://youtu.be/OcD0ugy1tRc

Even made him a cup of tea as well

So yeh doesn’t exactly fit your above statement.

What doesn't fit my statement?

They made him a cup of tea? I never made any claims about making or not making him any cups of tea???

I would again point out that he's currently a prisoner of war.

dowie · 27 Feb 2019 at 17:50

Rroff said:
From my perspective your side of the argument was barely any more objective than dowie's. They've (as in officially) not exactly mistreated him and the (seemingly minor fortunately) harm that did come to him before that wasn't in the hands of the military or apparently tacitly allowed by the military through inaction, etc. but on the other hand respect and dignity is pushing it a bit.

How was his claim more objective? He claimed they've treated him with "respect and dignity" - they didn't exactly stop the locals beating him, a token effort was made, of course they're not going to let things get too far or let them kill him. They filmed him/interviewed him and the footage has been released for the world to see.

Objectively they've not treated him with "respect and dignity" - that isn't just "pushing it a bit" it is objectively wrong. See reference to Geneva convention too.

Rroff · 27 Feb 2019 at 18:05

dowie said:
How was his claim more objective? He claimed they've treated him with "respect and dignity" - they didn't exactly stop the locals beating him, a token effort was made, of course they're not going to let things get too far or let them kill him. They filmed him/interviewed him and the footage has been released for the world to see.

Objectively they've not treated him with "respect and dignity" - that isn't just "pushing it a bit" it is objectively wrong. See reference to Geneva convention too.

Didn't mean to imply his was more objective - turn of phrase probably didn't translate very well.

I've not seen anything that substantiates the Pakistani military being in any way complicit with the beating? or of being involved in "not letting things go too far". While they've not treated him to the letter of the Geneva convention with behaviour that falls short of dignity and respect at the same time they don't appear at an official level to have mistreated him either.

EDIT: I take that back actually - not sure if I can post the video here but there were minor military ranks present while he was being mistreated it was only when senior ranks turned up things quickly changed. I'd only previously seen the before and then after bit when senior ranks got involved.

EDIT2: Can't post the video here as OcUK still filters the link but there is a video that shoots down what Vita was saying unfortunately.

Malevolence · 27 Feb 2019 at 18:09

itchy said:
A nuclear war would be fun to watch as that would be proper TV entertainment.

Due to the wind patterns in that part of the world most of the fallout will likely be blown towards the Arabian peninsula and the Horn of Africa. ** provocative comment removed **

BongoHunter · 27 Feb 2019 at 18:15

I'm sure I read somewhere that an India Pakistan nuclear exchange would destroy much of the ozone layer - so would be bad...

Hades · 27 Feb 2019 at 18:16

Malkavian said:
My GF is Indian. Let's do lunch.

Rroff · 27 Feb 2019 at 18:17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tnY2osWWAM

YouTube version - that isn't exactly respect and dignity.

(Not really sure how I feel about posting that but it is better to handle these things with as much fact as possible).

BongoHunter said:
I'm sure I read somewhere that an India Pakistan nuclear exchange would destroy much of the ozone layer - so would be bad...

Worst case scenario (and highly unlikely to happen even if they do engage in a nuclear exchange) would see 1.2-1.5C temperature drop globally and around 2 years of poor crop harvests, etc.

3rd world countries, etc. especially that rely on aid would suffer very badly as first world countries would have their hands full trying to keep their own citizens from starving.

EDIT: This is the nucleardarkness take on it http://www.nucleardarkness.org/warconsequences/fivemilliontonsofsmoke/

Dis86 · 27 Feb 2019 at 18:43

Looks like a great way to solve overpopulation and global warming!

Minusorange · 27 Feb 2019 at 18:49

Rroff said:
Worst case scenario (and highly unlikely to happen even if they do engage in a nuclear exchange) would see 1.2-1.5C temperature drop globally

People fighting global warming would see this as a positive outcome