Are NATO and the UN just full of useless ****s?

Zip

Zip

Zip

Soldato
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The way they are dealing with libya is a bloody joke.
They are all in their comfy chairs on their fat arses doing a whole lot of nothing while thousands of people die!

How hard is it to actually set up a no fly zone anyway? Why do they have to have meeting after damn meeting to decide what to do?
Its a load of bs! They have already burnt there bridges with gadafi so they may aswell help the rebals remove him. If he does regain control i doubt he's going to be happy with anyone in the west.

Its so damn frustrating watching them waist so much time.

Surely the counties like the uk and france that want to help can go ahead and do it with out everyone else. After all they only need to keep the sits clear. They don't need to deploy any troops.

It looks like nato need to take a leaf out of the saudis book on how to help people which ask for help.

Sorry for the format this is written in. Its done on a phone
 
The problem is that it's only really us and the US pushing for a no fly zone and after Iraq we have to be ultra transparent in gaining both international and ARAB support for it, given our reputation now in the Arab world, and a water-tight legal backing for one being put in place. Otherwise it could veru much be seen as the US and UK throwing their weight around again and sniffing around cheap oil again, which would do our international reputations no good at all, and could exacerbate our problems with terrorism even further.

Playing Devil's Advocate, we have no right to be claiming ANY involvement in the Lybian situation as it is now, as it is a purely internal matter: forces opposed to the present regime are staging an armed uprising and it is the right of the regime to put down this uprising and restore order. Any external involvement betrays the fact that other countries are itching for regime change and want rid of Gaddafi, yet we have no right to do so - it should first and foremost be decided by the Lybians themselves. To stretch the point a little, how would we have felt if the US had waded in demanding regime change during our struggles with the IRA in Northern Ireland?

We should only get involved if & when our help is requested IMHO
 
JonnyT said:
The problem is that it's only really us and the US pushing for a no fly zone and after Iraq we have to be ultra transparent in gaining both international and ARAB support for it, given our reputation now in the Arab world, and a water-tight legal backing for one being put in place. Otherwise it could veru much be seen as the US and UK throwing their weight around again and sniffing around cheap oil again, which would do our international reputations no good at all, and could exacerbate our problems with terrorism even further.

Playing Devil's Advocate, we have no right to be claiming ANY involvement in the Lybian situation as it is now, as it is a purely internal matter: forces opposed to the present regime are staging an armed uprising and it is the right of the regime to put down this uprising and restore order. Any external involvement betrays the fact that other countries are itching for regime change and want rid of Gaddafi, yet we have no right to do so - it should first and foremost be decided by the Lybians themselves. To stretch the point a little, how would we have felt if the US had waded in demanding regime change during our struggles with the IRA in Northern Ireland?

We should only get involved if & when our help is requested IMHO
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My thoughts word for word - we simply cannot bulldoze our way into the situation - we have to learn lessons from the past.
 
World politics is packed full of **** right up to the rafters! I recently researched an article about today's dictators and I couldn't believe how bad some of the people are that we let remain in power (sometimes because they do a lot of oil trade with us, coincidentally). These are dictators who don't seem to crop up on the news, either.

King Mswati III
Teodoro Obiang Nguema
Islam Karimov
Than Shwe
Omar Al-Bashir

To name a handful.
 
Zip said:
I thought the rebels have been requesting help and the other arab nations have also said they back a no fly zone.
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Russia doesn't back a no fly zone and without the full backing of the UN we are going nowhere this time. We have all seen what happens when the UK and the US rush into a bad situation we make it worse, who's to say the rebel leader that takes control of the country will be any better? Look at the useless pupet we are propping up in Iraq and the idiot that has come to power in Afghanistan if you want examples of us getting it wrong recently and go back to our support of one Saddam Hussain if you want a more historical one!

The Situation in Libiya is a tradgedy but taking sides is not the answer and launching another expensive war without UN backing we are not the world policeman
 
Dj_Jestar said:
Meanwhile everyone continues to ignore the millions being slaughtered in Africa. Nobody cares about the blacks, it would seem.
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I’m sure that countries are concerned but there isn’t a world police force and you just don’t go around meddling with the internal affairs of foreign states willy nilly. The same holds for Libya.
 
the problem is the US want nothing to do with at the moment...its only the uk and france

and seeing as we have no capabilty whatsoever by ourselves now we cannot do it (nice one Dave, imgaine even one carrier with a few harriers would have been useful about now)

let the arab league sort it out..the saudis have a modern air force, egypt have some capability


they can't keep moaning about the west getting involved when they dont want us to then come crying to us saying please sort this one out as we don't want to be seen to be actively participating.
 
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Zip said:
The way they are dealing with libya is a bloody joke.
They are all in their comfy chairs on their fat arses doing a whole lot of nothing while thousands of people die!
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Perhaps some of them actually understand we have no business interfering in another country civil war?


Zip said:
How hard is it to actually set up a no fly zone anyway?
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Well as they have enough SAM sites to shoot down every fighter jet in the the entire RAF probably quite difficult. also if our intelligence is correct the only have 1 fighter jet left out of the 4 mirages the French repaired last year as 2 are in Malta and one is shot down however our intelligence also said Saddam had WMD's, if its wrong here too and their MiG's are still operational they would have the entire RAF outmatched so we would need the USAF to stand a chance.



Zip said:
Surely the counties like the uk and france that want to help can go ahead and do it with out everyone else. After all they only need to keep the sits clear. They don't need to deploy any troops.
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As above, on paper their air force outmatches ours, however intelligence on how much of it is working is sketchy.


Dj_Jestar said:
Meanwhile everyone continues to ignore the millions being slaughtered in Africa. Nobody cares about the blacks, it would seem.
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Libya is in Africa...
 
Well suppose not everyone agrees with you, why should we set up a no fly zone? And what do you think it would achieve anyway? The main work from the Libyans is through arty and tanks.from what I've seen the mirage jets have hit very little but a tool that brings about a quicker resolution in that country (whilst retaining legality) is a good thing.
 
FTM said:
and seeing as we have no capabilty whatsoever by ourselves now we cannot do it (nice one Dave, imgaine even one carrier with a few harriers would have been useful about now)
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Sorry but that is total rubbish. We are perfectly capable of setting up a no fly zone on our own should we wish to do so. In fact the ground work has already been done from the airforce point of view, the only thing needed to implement one is a go from the Government.

The Harrier GR9s would be less than useless for this, they were a CAS aircraft not a fighter. And the Navy's Sea Harriers, while air to air capable, just wouldn't have the range and time on station to do a job like this well. Although they 'could' have done it in theory. But they are irrelevant as they were retired years ago, and not by the current government.

And to all those asking why we spent money on Typhoon, now you know. ;)
 
Eddie182 said:
And to all those asking why we spent money on Typhoon, now you know. ;)
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Yes im sure our 64 Typhoons (like the government would commit all of them to overseas action anyway) will be able to deal with 150 SAM batteries and (depending on the accuracy of the Intel) either 1x Mirage F1 or up to 250x Assorted MiG 23/25's...
 
simulatorman said:
I’m sure that countries are concerned but there isn’t a world police force and you just don’t go around meddling with the internal affairs of foreign states willy nilly. The same holds for Libya.
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Kinda my point, but nobody is crying about the rest of Africa, only Libya :p
ubersonic said:
Libya is in Africa...
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:o .. *rest of Africa
 
Zip said:
The way they are dealing with libya is a bloody joke.
They are all in their comfy chairs on their fat arses doing a whole lot of nothing while thousands of people die!

How hard is it to actually set up a no fly zone anyway? Why do they have to have meeting after damn meeting to decide what to do?
Its a load of bs! They have already burnt there bridges with gadafi so they may aswell help the rebals remove him. If he does regain control i doubt he's going to be happy with anyone in the west.

Its so damn frustrating watching them waist so much time.

Surely the counties like the uk and france that want to help can go ahead and do it with out everyone else. After all they only need to keep the sits clear. They don't need to deploy any troops.

It looks like nato need to take a leaf out of the saudis book on how to help people which ask for help.

Sorry for the format this is written in. Its done on a phone
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I don't think you need to apologise for the format, more for the abusive content.

First off, do you have any understanding of the roles of NATO or the United Nations?

NATO is a transatlantic security alliance and was set up to deal with the Cold War and protect Europe from the advance of Communist Russia, it is not set up to go off on jollies in the Middle East.

The United Nations Charter (if you haven't read it, maybe you should before posting offensive rants) explicitly states that state sovereignty is sacrosanct and states can only be engaged militarily if they prove a threat to other states. There could be said to be another debate to be had, surrounding right to protect doctrine, but something tells me the nuances of that would be lost on someone who posts a ranting thread with swear words in the topic.

Best get back to your day job.
 
There is no reason for us to get involved as Libya hasn't broken any rules which would allow us to deploy a military force.
Do some research before spouting rubbish OP!
 
ubersonic said:
Yes im sure our 64 Typhoons (like the government would commit all of them to overseas action anyway) will be able to deal with 150 SAM batteries and (depending on the accuracy of the Intel) either 1x Mirage F1 or up to 250x Assorted MiG 23/25's...
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It's what they are designed for, and the generation of SAM systems and aircraft fielded by Libya is a hell of a long way behind what we have.

Libya have only 30-40 combat capable Mig-23s, and similar numbers at best of other types. These types represent a minimal threat to modern airforces. The same goes for their SAM capability, it is comprised of late cold war era soviet systems (SA-2, SA-3 & SA-5) which are very easily countered by modern aircraft.

Their airforce has not changed since they lost 4 aircraft to US Navy F-14A tomcats, we've moved on a lot since then.

Don't forget, we have AWACS, tankers and various ELINT aircraft, Libya don't even have their own pilots for the most part. Many of their pilots and maintence crews are sourced from overseas, the Balkan states for example and don't even have anything close to the level of training ours do.

Additionally, it depends what sort of no-fly zone was to be implemented, if it were the whole of Libya, then yes more aircraft than we could deploy would be needed to be effective. If however a smaller area were to be covered then we could do it.

Of course this is all acedemic, as we wouldn't be doing it alone anyway, and at present it doesn't look like it'll happen at all.
 
Zip said:
I thought the rebels have been requesting help and the other arab nations have also said they back a no fly zone.
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yea REBELS , or if it happened in america "terrorists" but seeing as america oposes gaddafi they are "armed protestors" :rolleyes:

the other arab nations only back a no fly zone because they dont like gaddafi.. a no fly zone wont stop the two armies fighting anyway
 
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