Clichy is far better than Gibbs, the only area I would rate Gibbs above Clichy in is shooting and that isn't really a priority for a fullback. Jenkinson probably does offer more than Sagna, both are good at crossing but he seems to link up better in build up play. The jury is still out on who is the better player overall though.
Arsenal's defence - reactions so far?
- Thread starter Adam_101
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Caporegime
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Clichy offered a crapload in the final third, we simply played in a different way. Arshavin played quite well with him but we had years before that of of him playing with various people like Walcott, Hleb, Diaby a long while back. Then a string of midfielders that encouraged stupidly poor slow attacking football. Our success came from brilliant counter attacking, most top teams do, we've been devoid of successful counter attacking footie since we've had one of Denilson, Song, Diaby in the team getting the ball and slowing it down. Santi, and the rare games without one of those guys in the past 5 years, are a reason we're attacking faster which lends itself to Clichy/Gibbs.
Clichy got 4 assists last year, not massive but that included a crapload of quality crossing and passing to people. Sorry but spending all game in the final third and making one cross in 30 isn't nearly as effective as spending most of the game in your own third, going up and making 5 or 6 crosses out of the 10-15 you make.
Gibbs is present in the final third constantly, he provides basically nothing. He's got two very flukey own goals, outside of that basically nothing for years previously.
Jenkinson offers more in the final third than Sagna because, Sagna can't cross, is horrendously poor at the overlap, rarely takes players on and for some reason almost exclusively refuses to run onto a moving ball and cross. If someone plays a great diagonal ball towards the corner for him to run on to 99/100 times he stops the ball, looks up, lets them close and gets his cross blocked. The ability to play fast and cross with the first touch is crucial to the attackers making well timed runs.
Jenkinson is better, offensively and defensively, than Sagna, and he's still improving quite a bit largely due to playing and training more with top players. Clichy is much better in every aspect of his game than Gibbs, and unfortunately Gibbs has trained with Arsenal for donkeys years and hasn't shown an ounce of improvement in the past 4 years
There has also for me been a pretty direct correlation in the past few games with Podolski being significantly less involved and Gibbs attacking more. Gibbs gets a once in a career two poor crosses turned into the goal, and all of a sudden he's getting all the ball on the left wing, producing nothing, and Podolski disappears?
AFAIK Gibbs has one goal and Clichy has one goal... I'd say both suck at shooting
Though considering we have Diaby, Ramsey and.... possibly Santi all missing the goal I'm not sure I'd call either the worst.
From clips of previous seasons for Santi there is a few nice long range goals, and a good goal scoring record but I have no idea if most of his goals are tap ins or long range screamers. It's good he keeps putting it.. close, like a foot over the bar rather than 10 ft, or 20ft wide, but he's also not hitting the target an awful lot. Ramsey... no idea, shooting practice or should just stop shooting
Anyway, I feel vindicated, Song not being in the team has both sped up our offence VERY noticeably, and has cut down the sheer amount of set pieces we usually concede per game, both things equal a better team overall though... 2 new strikers with no preseason and randomly pushing a useless Gervinho upfront to waste 90% of what he gets is screwing us up. Ultimately we're 6 games into the season with 2 wins, 3 draws and a loss and we're sitting in 8th, 2 points behind West Ham and we had a pretty easy start to the season game wise. Sure, City and Chelsea out the way, but 1 point, one terrible performance, one decent performance, 2 rubbish draws and beating a can't score Liverpool who deserved to win on chances created.....
More solid at the back is one thing, absolutely shooting yourself in the foot upfront by refusing to give Giroud a run of games, sticking with an inept Gervinho and pushing Podolski out of games by letting Gibbs cross all game long... I mean, cross to who exactly to start with, and he can't cross!!! Gervinho has a huge forehead but has anyone seen him outmuscle anyone or win headers in the box? Who is Gibbs crossing to and why have we, after a good start, switched Gervinho into the middle and changed it up.
3-4 good performances with Podolski, Giroud, Gibbs trying to actually defend, then all of a sudden Wenger gets an idea, Giroud is out, Gervinho plays in the middle Gibbs should have all of the ball crossing it to no one, Podolski has disappeared, Santi has disappeared, AOC is getting less of the ball and Diaby shouldn't be near the team if we play anyone above the bottom 6-8, not to mention 2 injuries already this season.
Clichy got 4 assists last year, not massive but that included a crapload of quality crossing and passing to people. Sorry but spending all game in the final third and making one cross in 30 isn't nearly as effective as spending most of the game in your own third, going up and making 5 or 6 crosses out of the 10-15 you make.
Gibbs is present in the final third constantly, he provides basically nothing. He's got two very flukey own goals, outside of that basically nothing for years previously.
Jenkinson offers more in the final third than Sagna because, Sagna can't cross, is horrendously poor at the overlap, rarely takes players on and for some reason almost exclusively refuses to run onto a moving ball and cross. If someone plays a great diagonal ball towards the corner for him to run on to 99/100 times he stops the ball, looks up, lets them close and gets his cross blocked. The ability to play fast and cross with the first touch is crucial to the attackers making well timed runs.
Jenkinson is better, offensively and defensively, than Sagna, and he's still improving quite a bit largely due to playing and training more with top players. Clichy is much better in every aspect of his game than Gibbs, and unfortunately Gibbs has trained with Arsenal for donkeys years and hasn't shown an ounce of improvement in the past 4 years
There has also for me been a pretty direct correlation in the past few games with Podolski being significantly less involved and Gibbs attacking more. Gibbs gets a once in a career two poor crosses turned into the goal, and all of a sudden he's getting all the ball on the left wing, producing nothing, and Podolski disappears?
AFAIK Gibbs has one goal and Clichy has one goal... I'd say both suck at shooting
Though considering we have Diaby, Ramsey and.... possibly Santi all missing the goal I'm not sure I'd call either the worst.
From clips of previous seasons for Santi there is a few nice long range goals, and a good goal scoring record but I have no idea if most of his goals are tap ins or long range screamers. It's good he keeps putting it.. close, like a foot over the bar rather than 10 ft, or 20ft wide, but he's also not hitting the target an awful lot. Ramsey... no idea, shooting practice or should just stop shooting
Anyway, I feel vindicated, Song not being in the team has both sped up our offence VERY noticeably, and has cut down the sheer amount of set pieces we usually concede per game, both things equal a better team overall though... 2 new strikers with no preseason and randomly pushing a useless Gervinho upfront to waste 90% of what he gets is screwing us up. Ultimately we're 6 games into the season with 2 wins, 3 draws and a loss and we're sitting in 8th, 2 points behind West Ham and we had a pretty easy start to the season game wise. Sure, City and Chelsea out the way, but 1 point, one terrible performance, one decent performance, 2 rubbish draws and beating a can't score Liverpool who deserved to win on chances created.....
More solid at the back is one thing, absolutely shooting yourself in the foot upfront by refusing to give Giroud a run of games, sticking with an inept Gervinho and pushing Podolski out of games by letting Gibbs cross all game long... I mean, cross to who exactly to start with, and he can't cross!!! Gervinho has a huge forehead but has anyone seen him outmuscle anyone or win headers in the box? Who is Gibbs crossing to and why have we, after a good start, switched Gervinho into the middle and changed it up.
3-4 good performances with Podolski, Giroud, Gibbs trying to actually defend, then all of a sudden Wenger gets an idea, Giroud is out, Gervinho plays in the middle Gibbs should have all of the ball crossing it to no one, Podolski has disappeared, Santi has disappeared, AOC is getting less of the ball and Diaby shouldn't be near the team if we play anyone above the bottom 6-8, not to mention 2 injuries already this season.
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I think as a team we are more solid. We don't look as panicked when teams press us. There were a couple of bad mistakes against Chelsea though, have to wonder if we'd have conceded them with Mertesaker on the pitch.
Hate Gervinho with a passion, such a useless excuse of a footballer. Why on earth he has been left on the pitch instead of Podolski i have no idea. Would rather Giroud started central till he finds his shooting boots.
Hate Gervinho with a passion, such a useless excuse of a footballer. Why on earth he has been left on the pitch instead of Podolski i have no idea. Would rather Giroud started central till he finds his shooting boots.
I think Arsenal's defence is reasonable apart from Koscielny (he's dire). Verm is obviously a decent CB. Mert is slow in general but fairly solid. Gibbs and Jenkinson are both reasonable defensively (prone to mistakes but I think that part of their game can be worked on) and good offensively.
@Newbie007 - We're two points better off than last season, not worse
@grimm - Baffled at how anyone can think Vermaelen is better than Koscielny, personally, but there you go. Koscielny was consistently one of the best centre backs in the league last season.
Vermaelen evidently built up a lot of credit with some eye-catching goals in his debut season. He then missed basically an entire campaign, and everyone knows the longer a player is out, the better they become in the rose-tinted eyes of the supporters (Jack Wilshere is basically Maradona crossed with Jesus at the moment, it seems). Last season he was injured a fair bit and had to play at left back for a lot of the season, so it’s hard to judge him on that.
IMO he’s decent but positionally he has always left a lot to be desired and he can be rash in the tackle. Koscielny on the other hand is not as strong or as good going forward, but his positional sense is definitely superior and he’s more composed.
I don’t like the fact that TV being captain would seem to make it hard to drop him, put it that way.
@grimm - Baffled at how anyone can think Vermaelen is better than Koscielny, personally, but there you go. Koscielny was consistently one of the best centre backs in the league last season.
Vermaelen evidently built up a lot of credit with some eye-catching goals in his debut season. He then missed basically an entire campaign, and everyone knows the longer a player is out, the better they become in the rose-tinted eyes of the supporters (Jack Wilshere is basically Maradona crossed with Jesus at the moment, it seems). Last season he was injured a fair bit and had to play at left back for a lot of the season, so it’s hard to judge him on that.
IMO he’s decent but positionally he has always left a lot to be desired and he can be rash in the tackle. Koscielny on the other hand is not as strong or as good going forward, but his positional sense is definitely superior and he’s more composed.
I don’t like the fact that TV being captain would seem to make it hard to drop him, put it that way.
Chicken and egg situation though I feel, I've seen plenty of 'good crosses' going in but nobody to meet them which is so frustrating to a fan and must be for the player too so there comes a time when our players in wide positions (where they often used to get the ball with our 'triangles' play) choose a short pass or cut inside instead as opposed to putting a ball in with nobody in the box.
As for Gervinho playing in middle maybe it is because literally every single preseason game he played from the left he would drift inside with the ball anyway, I think somebody must have said "hug the touchline" and he took it the wrong way, he dribbles along the GOALKICK line and then tries to slot it under the keeper at the near post. So Wenger thought stuff it I'll play him at CF then at least he isn't out of position
I actually don't mind Gervinho at CF. He's annoying, and his finishing is a bit comical, but his pace and willingness to run still make him dangerous, and he gets shed loads of chances. Just wish he could finish a few more.
Yeh well at least he pulls the defenders around quite a bit. It seems to make room for Cazorla and Podolski. Not really sure what Giroud is up to yet, maybe he'll settle down a bit soon and stop snatching at his chances.
Yeah, his pace and just general energy causes problems. Although I do like the look of Giroud, he just can't seem to finish, which going on his goalscoring record, it's not like him.
This year
1-2 Chelsea (h)
6-1 Southampton (h)
1-1 Man City (a)
0-2 Liverpool (a)
0-0 Stoke (a)
0-0 Sunderland (h)
Points total = 9
Last Year
0-0 Chelsea (h)
Didn’t play Southampton but beat 2 of the promoted teams so we’ll give you the win
0-1 Man City (a)
1-2 Liverpool (a)
1-1 Stoke (a)
2-1 Sunderland (h)
Points total = 11
2 points worse off this year.
Soldato
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Clichy offered a crapload in the final third, we simply played in a different way. Arshavin played quite well with him but we had years before that of of him playing with various people like Walcott, Hleb, Diaby a long while back.
Clichy was awful going foward. Okay, not awful. He made some good runs, was always available for the overlap but his delivery was very very poor. It did pick up last season but up till then his crossing was pap. Ashavin played quite well with him?? How many games was that for?!
Then a string of midfielders that encouraged stupidly poor slow attacking football. Our success came from brilliant counter attacking, most top teams do, we've been devoid of successful counter attacking footie since we've had one of Denilson, Song, Diaby in the team getting the ball and slowing it down. Santi, and the rare games without one of those guys in the past 5 years, are a reason we're attacking faster which lends itself to Clichy/Gibbs.
I agree with that. Those players mentioned always took one, two or three touches too many before releasing the ball.
Clichy got 4 assists last year, not massive but that included a crapload of quality crossing and passing to people. Sorry but spending all game in the final third and making one cross in 30 isn't nearly as effective as spending most of the game in your own third, going up and making 5 or 6 crosses out of the 10-15 you make.
Gibbs is present in the final third constantly, he provides basically nothing. He's got two very flukey own goals, outside of that basically nothing for years previously.
Bit harsh on Gibbs since he hasn't played THAT much in previous seasons due to injuries and clichy ahead in the pecking order. Clichy providing a "crapload of quality crossing"? Good grief.
Jenkinson offers more in the final third than Sagna because, Sagna can't cross, is horrendously poor at the overlap, rarely takes players on and for some reason almost exclusively refuses to run onto a moving ball and cross. If someone plays a great diagonal ball towards the corner for him to run on to 99/100 times he stops the ball, looks up, lets them close and gets his cross blocked. The ability to play fast and cross with the first touch is crucial to the attackers making well timed runs.
Jenkinson does have a lovely cross on him and is more of a threat going forward than Sagna but saying Sagna is horrendously poor on the overlap is a bit of an exaggeration. His crossing isn't all that, yeah but he's there time and time again providing the option of the overlap which then forces the oppositions left back to cover his run, freeing up space for the player on the right with the ball.
Jenkinson is better, offensively and defensively, than Sagna, and he's still improving quite a bit largely due to playing and training more with top players. Clichy is much better in every aspect of his game than Gibbs, and unfortunately Gibbs has trained with Arsenal for donkeys years and hasn't shown an ounce of improvement in the past 4 years
Jenkinson better defensively than Sagna??!?! Oh my.
There has also for me been a pretty direct correlation in the past few games with Podolski being significantly less involved and Gibbs attacking more. Gibbs gets a once in a career two poor crosses turned into the goal, and all of a sudden he's getting all the ball on the left wing, producing nothing, and Podolski disappears?
AFAIK Gibbs has one goal and Clichy has one goal... I'd say both suck at shooting
Though considering we have Diaby, Ramsey and.... possibly Santi all missing the goal I'm not sure I'd call either the worst.
From clips of previous seasons for Santi there is a few nice long range goals, and a good goal scoring record but I have no idea if most of his goals are tap ins or long range screamers. It's good he keeps putting it.. close, like a foot over the bar rather than 10 ft, or 20ft wide, but he's also not hitting the target an awful lot. Ramsey... no idea, shooting practice or should just stop shooting
Anyway, I feel vindicated, Song not being in the team has both sped up our offence VERY noticeably, and has cut down the sheer amount of set pieces we usually concede per game, both things equal a better team overall though... 2 new strikers with no preseason and randomly pushing a useless Gervinho upfront to waste 90% of what he gets is screwing us up. Ultimately we're 6 games into the season with 2 wins, 3 draws and a loss and we're sitting in 8th, 2 points behind West Ham and we had a pretty easy start to the season game wise. Sure, City and Chelsea out the way, but 1 point, one terrible performance, one decent performance, 2 rubbish draws and beating a can't score Liverpool who deserved to win on chances created.....
Yeah, glad Song is gone. Too damn slow on the ball and lazy. Arteta looking great in that position at the moment, let's hope he can keep it up and that he doesn't get injured and diagnosed with the dreaded '3 week' lay off which usually ends up as 6-12 months...
More solid at the back is one thing, absolutely shooting yourself in the foot upfront by refusing to give Giroud a run of games, sticking with an inept Gervinho and pushing Podolski out of games by letting Gibbs cross all game long... I mean, cross to who exactly to start with, and he can't cross!!! Gervinho has a huge forehead but has anyone seen him outmuscle anyone or win headers in the box? Who is Gibbs crossing to and why have we, after a good start, switched Gervinho into the middle and changed it up.
Gervinho is a funny one. He gets himself in so many decent positions, can take a man on but then he'll turn back, try to take that man on again and again until either he gets tackled or the opposition has reorganised and the opportunity of playing someone in has gone. No way should he be playing through the middle though. Shocking decision, give Giroud a go. At least he can dominate a centre back, hold up the ball well and is dangerous at crosses. He showed that at City when he came on. He might also get himself on the end of one of Gibbs' fruitless crosses
3-4 good performances with Podolski, Giroud, Gibbs trying to actually defend, then all of a sudden Wenger gets an idea, Giroud is out, Gervinho plays in the middle Gibbs should have all of the ball crossing it to no one, Podolski has disappeared, Santi has disappeared, AOC is getting less of the ball and Diaby shouldn't be near the team if we play anyone above the bottom 6-8, not to mention 2 injuries already this season.
Just my opinions
Caporegime
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I actually don't mind Gervinho at CF. He's annoying, and his finishing is a bit comical, but his pace and willingness to run still make him dangerous, and he gets shed loads of chances. Just wish he could finish a few more.
He's had 13 shots this year compared to Giroud's 11, he had a single chance against Chelsea, and a single one against Olympiacos, shedloads, no. He gets shedloads of the ball, but does nothing with it. His willingness to run doesn't make him marginally dangerous, not least because he spent the entire last season running, and getting the ball, and failing to be dangerous, but he's done that with 99% of the ball he's had this year. A player who is willing to run and is dangerous is one who does something with the ball when he gets it, something Gervinho in no way whatsoever does.
Also the goal we conceded was exactly because Gervinho couldn't be arsed to run and track the guy closest to him even though it was patently clear that there was danger there.
No idea why people think the finish was some kind of fantastic, turn and shoot, not magic. He didn't skin 2 players then put it in the corner, he turned and shot. Dzeko did the exact same thing, Podolski did it , its a pretty standard finish.
He's no good, he could score a single goal against every team from now till next millenium and he still wouldn't be good. Because he's both, unwilling to stay upfront, isn't very good and gets FAR too much of the ball while wasting almost all his posession. It's easy to get mostly tap ins, it relys on everyone else playing well. When we had Henry upfront we had a player who could do anything and could get the ball and create well for others.
Also find it pretty funny to suggest that Kos is more composed than Vermaelen based on a few games against crap teams at the beginning of the season.
We had easy opposition, verm came into the team against tougher competition, because we were also punished for our defensive mistakes, mistakes we made in the earlier games but went unpunished, people have decided Mert is brilliant and Verm is terrible.
Those lunging tackles Verm does where he rushes out, Kos did one that deserved a red in the last game, and does it most games, and did it all last season and a crapload in the first season.
Kos with Squillaci, everyone branded them both equally crap, Kos with Mert/Djourou/Verm, people brand Kos one of the best in the league, Kos and Mert play 3 "easy" teams, and Kos and Verm play against 4-5 much tougher opposition...... we lose against harder opposition..... Verm must be crap and Kos is good.
Its so predictable what both fans and the press will react to, which is, a small run of games or form while ignoring the competition.
We still desparately need a left back and should have gone for Baines last season instead of the utter waste of space that is Santos. We may get away without a backup right back, Yennaris is looking quite promising as a general footballer.
We desparately need to give Arshavin games, he's one of the best players on the team, he just isn't a "stats" player. Walcott will pass to midfield when things look difficult which lets him finish the game with a high pass percentage, Arshavin never shys away from a difficult pass, but also got 18 assists in a not great season for him, says it all. He's a class above most of what Arsenal have. Its like not playing Hazard because he gives away the ball more than say, Malouda... he's also many many times more effective and having a truly effective player in the attack makes all the difference.
Caporegime
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