Atos wants out

Soldato
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The outsourcing argument never washes with me, know I will admit I am probably bias as I work in the public sector, but I am of the view that when you ring up someone to discuss issues or require help you should at least speak with someone who knows about the issue or at least knows the area you are talking about, I know how rubbish it is to make calls now for support and speak with people without a clue!
 
Caporegime
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The outsourcing argument never washes with me, know I will admit I am probably bias as I work in the public sector, but I am of the view that when you ring up someone to discuss issues or require help you should at least speak with someone who knows about the issue or at least knows the area you are talking about, I know how rubbish it is to make calls now for support and speak with people without a clue!

^^ This.

In my view the following should never be outsourced:

* Catering
* Cleaning
* Helpdesk/support
* Human resources
* Prison management

I have industry experience with four of these five, and outsourcing has resulted in a hellish nightmare every time.
 
Man of Honour
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The outsourcing argument never washes with me, know I will admit I am probably bias as I work in the public sector, but I am of the view that when you ring up someone to discuss issues or require help you should at least speak with someone who knows about the issue or at least knows the area you are talking about, I know how rubbish it is to make calls now for support and speak with people without a clue!

I have this experience every time I contact my local council or the dvla, neither of which are outsourced...

The big problem with public sector outsourcing is that it seems to be done for the sake of it, and withour much care. Outsourcing the cleaning of a site to a group that specialises in cleaning makes sense. Outsourcing a multitude of disparate roles to the same group (such as serco or capita) does not.

The real benefits of outsourcing come from enhanced specialisation allowing better focus on core tasks, not wholescale transfer of large multifunctional operations to a single group.
 
Soldato
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The real benefits of outsourcing come from enhanced specialisation allowing better focus on core tasks, not wholescale transfer of large multifunctional operations to a single group.


Never seen you post so much rubbish. Birmingham outsourced their dialysis centres.
What did they do? get rid of 45% of the nurses never fix the dialysis machines so people had to go else where.

Patents then complained to tv\radio\mp so the company got the machines fixed but there are no nurse's to make use of them.
Now as of Friday last week only two dialysis machines are working..

Same as the cleaning was outsourced in my local hospital now the place is dirty and people are catching diseases.
 
Caporegime
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The real problem is that we still are not being clear about what our benefits system is supposed to do, or what being in receipt of benefits for disability is supposed to indicate. There are a great many disabled people who work without issue, there are others who, despite having the same conditions, do not. Furthermore, there are another group who cannot and will never be able to work.

IMO, disability benefits should be about the condition, not about whether the individual is working or not. That would remove much of the issues are multiple assessments with differing expectations, as well as allowing disables people to have their issues acknowledged when they are successful In employment.

That's what disability living allowance is for you can work and still receive the benefit.

ESA is like JSA for people who can't work or need help looking for work you can get it as well as DLA as DLA is not means tested
 
Man of Honour
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That's what disability living allowance is for you can work and still receive the benefit.

ESA is like JSA for people who can't work or need help looking for work you can get it as well as DLA as DLA is not means tested

DLA no longer exists, it was replaced by PIP which, although not means tested, judges whether you have taken steps yourself (for example, buying an automatic car) and discounts that portion from your award as already solved, which actively encourages dependency.
 
Man of Honour
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Never seen you post so much rubbish. Birmingham outsourced their dialysis centres.
What did they do? get rid of 45% of the nurses never fix the dialysis machines so people had to go else where.

Patents then complained to tv\radio\mp so the company got the machines fixed but there are no nurse's to make use of them.
Now as of Friday last week only two dialysis machines are working..

Same as the cleaning was outsourced in my local hospital now the place is dirty and people are catching diseases.

And that provides a counter to my point that outsourcing can be done right how?

Do you service your own car?
 
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DLA no longer exists, it was replaced by PIP which, although not means tested, judges whether you have taken steps yourself (for example, buying an automatic car) and discounts that portion from your award as already solved, which actively encourages dependency.

It is my understanding PIP replaced DLA for working age disabled, DLA is still paid to those 65 or over after PIP was rolled out. These People still get DLA.
 
Caporegime
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It is my understanding PIP replaced DLA for working age disabled, DLA is still paid to those 65 or over after PIP was rolled out. These People still get DLA.

PIP has not been fully rolled out and won't be for another 1-2 years.

it's probably the monority in the south that are on PIP
 
Soldato
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The outsourcing argument never washes with me, know I will admit I am probably bias as I work in the public sector, but I am of the view that when you ring up someone to discuss issues or require help you should at least speak with someone who knows about the issue or at least knows the area you are talking about, I know how rubbish it is to make calls now for support and speak with people without a clue!

The problem with outsourcing isn't the process itself, it is the way that, in the main, people decide to do it.

'OH GOD THIS IS A PROBLEM' *outsources*

or

'WE AREN'T GOOD AT THIS AND IT IS COSTING US MORE THAN WE CAN EXPLAIN' *outsources*

outsourcing is a fantastic way of removing ownership of risk of an issue, and focusing on the provision of your primary business

Let's pick the NHS, you look after people, you don't want to be managing a massive network with complex databases and having staff on hand to cope with that, having to train them to keep them experienced when new systems come out, etc etc

The problem is, people outsource problems - for example, a poor IT Service - and are surprised when it costs a fortune/they don't get what they want - usually because they don't understand what they want, can't accurately cost what it currently costs them, or a variety of other reasons. The reality dawns they weren't in a position to do it, the contract is water tight, and they get into a bad situation where lots of expensive changes are requested that the service provider - quite rightly - wants plenty o'cash for.

I can totally understand Atos wanting out. I've seen several companies do it on other deals. It has to make financial sense to them, and that has to include brand damage. I don't think in their wildest dreams a major multinational like Atos could have predicted what it would be like to take on this contract, but I can't imagine in 2 years time they will give a **** about it, other than 'don't ever take anything like this again'.

There are plenty of examples when Outsourcing does work, and unsurprisingly, they never make the press.
 
Soldato
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Never seen you post so much rubbish. Birmingham outsourced their dialysis centres.
What did they do? get rid of 45% of the nurses never fix the dialysis machines so people had to go else where.

Patents then complained to tv\radio\mp so the company got the machines fixed but there are no nurse's to make use of them.
Now as of Friday last week only two dialysis machines are working..

Same as the cleaning was outsourced in my local hospital now the place is dirty and people are catching diseases.

Serious question - what does the contract say in both of those examples.

If the service level agreement isn't clear, it is absolutely not the fault of the outsourcing partner, and totally the fault of the NHS trust that asked them to do it.

They are companies there to make money, not charities. The fact it is to do with healthcare makes it 'emotive' but the point stands.
 
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Whoever comes after ATOS will be just as bad if not worse. There are smart people in Goverment outsourcing everything thinking the private sector will do it better and more efficently. How can it though when it has to earn a profit? It is pretty basic maths that if i have a job that needs doing and i outsource to one of two people the person who does not have a profit burden can offer more for your money.


Example 1 is i have a million quid to take care of x amount of people. The tenders would be ATOS and the public sector. The public sector do it just like a hospital hiring people and spending the £1 million on staff and equipment. Example 2 is ATOS who when given the £1 million insantly take 100k for profit and spend £900,000 on staff and equipment.



So which service is superior?
 
Man of Honour
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Whoever comes after ATOS will be just as bad if not worse. There are smart people in Goverment outsourcing everything thinking the private sector will do it better and more efficently. How can it though when it has to earn a profit? It is pretty basic maths that if i have a job that needs doing and i outsource to one of two people the person who does not have a profit burden can offer more for your money.


Example 1 is i have a million quid to take care of x amount of people. The tenders would be ATOS and the public sector. The public sector do it just like a hospital hiring people and spending the £1 million on staff and equipment. Example 2 is ATOS who when given the £1 million insantly take 100k for profit and spend £900,000 on staff and equipment.


So which service is superior?

There is not enough information here to be sure. Spending money, in itself, says nothing about the quality of service or equipment.

Unless the public sector is 100% efficient and could not be improved in any way, then there is always scope for savings and hence profit.
 
Soldato
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12,646
Whoever comes after ATOS will be just as bad if not worse. There are smart people in Goverment outsourcing everything thinking the private sector will do it better and more efficently. How can it though when it has to earn a profit? It is pretty basic maths that if i have a job that needs doing and i outsource to one of two people the person who does not have a profit burden can offer more for your money.


Example 1 is i have a million quid to take care of x amount of people. The tenders would be ATOS and the public sector. The public sector do it just like a hospital hiring people and spending the £1 million on staff and equipment. Example 2 is ATOS who when given the £1 million insantly take 100k for profit and spend £900,000 on staff and equipment.



So which service is superior?


There is not enough information here to be sure. Spending money, in itself, says nothing about the quality of service or equipment.

Unless the public sector is 100% efficient and could not be improved in any way, then there is always scope for savings and hence profit.

Dolph is spot on here.

Atos are a huge service provisioning organisation, they'll have all sorts of economies of scale to consider on this sort of contract.

If the contract is written properly, and clearly defines the Service provision, they should be absolutely identical. The fact Atos can pocket £100k or whatever is irrelevant.

Lets use IT Support as a really easy thing for us all to understand.

Image its taking the outsourcing of someones first line support desk, instead of needing 30 people like the current company has, they may only need an addition 2-3-4-5-6-7 (whatever) extra people on an existing outsource desk, and a bit of effort on writing some call scripts for the call centre guys to work through.

Sure, there are then questions about the quality of the service, and awareness of the company environment, but those are all things that should be specified in the contract. Through nothing less than pure stupidity and oversight they regularly are not specified (people forget what they have and take for granted) and as such, the contract isn't written or priced in such fashion.
 

Deleted member 66701

D

Deleted member 66701

Although when the likes of HP are milking a profit margin of nearly 40% from the DWP contact compared to the industry average of 11% then something has clearly gone a bit awry.

And when they press for the government to allow offshoring of the live support function and split the difference in savings - well I'd get banned for typing what I think to that!
 
Caporegime
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So can I apply for DLA now? Note I am over 16..

irrelevant more people are still collecting DLA than there are people collecting PIP

even the gov website says this
The majority of existing DLA claimants won’t be re-assessed until 2015 or later, after DWP has considered the findings of the first independent review in 2014.

updated 3rd feb 2014
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...out-to-existing-claimants-in-northern-england

for something "that no longer exists" there is a hell of a lot more people claiming it than those claiming PIP
people went to PIP if.
they were new claims.
there claim was being renewed.

everyone else is still on DLA and will be for another 1-2 years as the roll-out is extremely slow
 
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Caporegime
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The real benefits of outsourcing come from enhanced specialisation allowing better focus on core tasks, not wholescale transfer of large multifunctional operations to a single group.

I agree with this, and in theory it's perfect. But in practice it too often fails.

When I lived in the UK I was an account manager for Rentokil Initial. We had a cleaning contract for ~170 Midlands Co-Op stores.

Rentokil had won the contract by promising an extremely high level of service with well trained cleaners and the latest equipment, at a reasonable price. Our bid was not the cheapest, but it wasn't excessive either.

I took on the role of account manager expecting to be supported by the huge resources of a well established multinational more than capable of delivering the contract at the promised level of service.

In reality:

* I was repeatedly told to ignore the terms of our contract because it had been mis-sold to the client and we had no hope of meeting it

* I learned that our profit margin on the contract was a mere 6% when it should have been at least 14%

* I was told we must reduce staff at as many sites as possible (up to 50% in some cases) for the sole purpose of increasing margin—even though this was a breach of our contract with the client

* I was told we must reduce hours at sites where it was not feasible to reduce staff (again, a breach of our contract with the client)

* I was required to hire people who had never worked as cleaners before; these employees never received adequate training at any point during their time with us, so their level of service was invariably poor

* District managers regularly hired new immigrants with poor or negligible English skills whose work visas had not been finalised

* I had to outsource specialised roles (e.g. window cleaning) to third party contractors because my own department didn't employ anyone for these roles

* Payment to these third party contracts was typically delayed due to budget restraints, so a number of them refused to do business with us again because they were sick of waiting more than 3 months for money that never arrived

* The process for repairing and/or replacing faulty equipment was unnecessarily complicated and usually took a minimum of two weeks, during which time the cleaner would be unable to do his/her job properly so the district manager often had to borrow equipment from another site (at one point we had a single buffer being passed back and forth between three different supermarkets)

* Equipment repair and replacement was outsourced to a third party contractor which was notoriously slow (probably because our accounts department rarely paid them on time)

* Cleaners were often paid incorrectly and corrections to their pay could take a month or more (a leading factor in our high staff turnover) some went to arbitration while others simply took it on the chin and walked out despite being owed hundreds of £s

* We paid minimum wage to everyone, even on the rare occasion when we managed to recruit a highly proficient cleaner with decades of experience

* I was told I'd be able to draw on staff and equipment resources from account managers on other contracts, but I typically found them unable to assist because they had staff and equipment shortages of their own; in fact some of them came to me begging for help I could not provide

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on and on.
 
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Associate
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As long as the DWP unofficially set targets and publicly deny them it doesn't matter which company gets the contract as they all know the truth is less important then the targets so why bother with quality when your employer wants quantity. This whole reform process is a sham has nothing to do with proper reforrm just cost cutting by any means.
 

GAC

GAC

Soldato
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As long as the DWP unofficially set targets and publicly deny them it doesn't matter which company gets the contract as they all know the truth is less important then the targets so why bother with quality when your employer wants quantity. This whole reform process is a sham has nothing to do with proper reforrm just cost cutting by any means.

targets or not take the work program as an example, its a complete farce.

iv actually been on it for nearly 2 years and iv never come across such a bunch of inept idiots.

the latest example of this, i got a phone call last tuesday saying i was to turn up at the remploy (the people delivering the work program on behalf of g4s who got the contract in the first place) office last friday in my interview clothes as they have a interview for me this tuesday with g4s at a specific venue and job.

i question the hours as i had previously not applied to this as i couldnt physically get there in time for the work due to public transport, they say well their not 100% sure but come down friday to find out all the info.

so i turn up friday shirt, tie etc and the silly cow who is my adviser is all excited and even gives me a little giddy clap that i managed to have a shave and put on a shirt :rolleyes:

so then she starts to hand me a application form and tell me when and where the interview is, when i question her about the actual job im being interviewed for she cant actually tell me what its for. all she says is the accounts manager says i dont need a car, but cant tell me the start time.

so i suggest she contacts the accounts manager and the reply i get i was not expecting she refused to phone her because "i dont like calling her" ?! im sorry your getting PAID £18k a year and you cant pick up a sodding phone.

then she fires a email off and while she does this she flicks back to a email about the job and it says the position is for "manchster and stockport relief cover." although when i point this out she says "well i means a job in manchester, and also relief cover jobs" even though this is not what it says.

so now im going to spend today doing her job trying to find out what im actually interviewing for if i even go at all.

if this is what the private sector can do i all i can say is come back the old dhss offices depicted on bread with the extremely unhelpful staff.
 
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