Axe personal allowance and pay everyone £48 a week, says thinktank
- Thread starter chaparral
- Start date
Soldato
Demonstrably false.
You have it the wrong way around .. countries whose economies have done well can implement social security measures...
Implementing social security doesn't, in of itself, cause the economy to improve.
Sweeden often raised as an example of a 'good' social security state had its biggest growth *before* its welfare state took of in earnest and since the 70's growth per capita has fallen behind the rest of Europe average, The USA and Japan.
Further more in the period since 1971 Sweeden did a lot better when the halted and started to roll back the more left wing measures they had previously implemented!
So I'll knock it back to you if you want to try and rebut me by showing examples of countries whoose economies took of after massiviely increasing their welfare state.
The socialist Venezuelan state showered their populace with freebies. . How did that work out?
Last edited:
Man of Honour
You are misrepresenting the position. In many cases, it doesn't require any AI at all. Do you, for example, regard a website as "super duper magical AI"? The automated food ordering system in some food outlets as "super duper magical AI"? Automated stock monitoring using RFID as "super duper magical AI"? Etc, etc. I don't. I doubt if you do, either. It's just a convenient phrase to use to dismiss a line of argument you can't make a counter-argument towards.
No it's fine, you don't need super duper AI for computers in general or for steam power etc... I'm not seeing anything new here that is all. Just the same old luddite argument. super duper AI just seems to be the reason put forth by some as to why this time it will be different.
Man of Honour
You don't see anything new because you're ignoring everything new. Ignore your obsession with the "super duper AI" that has been mentioned only by you. That's some way off, if it ever happens. It's largely irrelevant at the moment.
You're arguing that there is no significant difference between early (and very primitive) partially automated looms and suchlike and the recent proliferation of modern "phones" and a global comms system being used for numerous tasks that would otherwise require quite a few person-hours of work (to give just one example of increasing automation). You're assuming that billions of person-hours of paid work per week will automatically appear in currently unknown areas of work for unknown reasons.
It's not a strong argument, to put it mildly, and you give no evidence or reasoning in support of it.
It's true that in the past a reduction in paid work available in agriculture was eventually (after a huge amount of suffering and death) offset by an increase in paid work in manufacturing (which caused even more suffering and death) and that a reduction in paid work in manufacturing was offset by an increase in paid work in distribution and service...but where's the next growth area of mass paid work? Are we all going to be painting each other's fingernails for a living and making Youtube videos of it?
Of course this time is different - the technology is far better and far more integrated.
No I'm not arguing that there is no difference between them, I would argue that the effect is similar though.
Really - if you're talking about the above then you have evidence already in the form of employment figures.
Yet we've got record high employment....
Soldato
Seems a pretty good reason to put forth why it will be different to me. Previous major leap forward in machine capability was physical. And it massively displaced those in such work. How many people do you see out in the wheatfields at harvest time these days? One or two with a combine harvester. Ditto for factory workers replaced by robots. Now it's mostly just quite skilled types of physical labour that are viable to make a living at - building work for example. The population survived the intrusion of technology into physical competency by retreating into mental competency. Now technological advancement is intruding on mental competency what further ground do people have to retreat into this time? Social competency? Spiritual competency? Is there a vast untapped market for social butterflies? Advanced research? How many people are capable of that?
Technology is advancing rapidly. Human capability largely static. It is an inevitability from those two established axioms that the gap between human competency and machine competency is narrowing. And that translates directly into the field of work. Short of a catastrophic social collapse, we have to find a way of dealing with this.
OK what technological advancement is being referred to if not AI?
Soldato
I refer to technological advancement in aggregate.
Ok so why the record high employment we have at the moment?
Soldato
Haven't read through all this... but... sorta odd in places near the start.
The UK's currently... pretty right wing. The left is painted as a pantomime bad guy by most of our right wing owned press, when they're suggesting stuff that's ultra common everywhere else in Europe.
Consider how most European countries seem to run compared to the US. I... think I'd prefer German or Scandinavian style governance and general country feel to that of the states...
The whole thing with e.g the trains. Vilified for suggesting to bringing it back into public ownership, instead it should be run by private companies, owned by other states so profits are spent on their publicly owned rail network...
The only folks winning there are those at the top (who profit from the shares in these companies). Meanwhile there's a few suggestions on us spreading our crumbs around a little more fairly, at the same time as their press seeks to neatly divide us into different camps, all sniping at each other and trying to rob each others crumbs... it's nuts. I don't get how people think.
Follow where money goes and the problem quickly becomes apparent.
The UK's currently... pretty right wing. The left is painted as a pantomime bad guy by most of our right wing owned press, when they're suggesting stuff that's ultra common everywhere else in Europe.
Consider how most European countries seem to run compared to the US. I... think I'd prefer German or Scandinavian style governance and general country feel to that of the states...
The whole thing with e.g the trains. Vilified for suggesting to bringing it back into public ownership, instead it should be run by private companies, owned by other states so profits are spent on their publicly owned rail network...
The only folks winning there are those at the top (who profit from the shares in these companies). Meanwhile there's a few suggestions on us spreading our crumbs around a little more fairly, at the same time as their press seeks to neatly divide us into different camps, all sniping at each other and trying to rob each others crumbs... it's nuts. I don't get how people think.
Follow where money goes and the problem quickly becomes apparent.
Soldato
because it includes zero hour contracts. I think the actual definition was that 10 hours work in 2 weeks is considered employed.
Only for a minority of jobs... still that is employment regardless and people are seemingly advocating mass unemployment... which isn't happening.
Soldato
So, in an official downturn in an economy, when the stats are so good the end of their nose is in another timezone, you're going to ignore everything and believe the stats? Ok. I'll let you keep your opinion, I'll keep mine 
@Diddums — It's happening.
It has happened before in both SC and GD actually....
