Bad service from a retailer, what are my rights?

[estebanrey]

He has clearly had a data corruption issue, most likely caused by a hardware failure unless the retailer can prove otherwise.

Hardware failure != Faulty Hardware.

If I get a BSOD on my PC, it doesn't mean a part of my PC has broken and the hardware is now faulty, it just means something happened at that moment in time which caused my PC to crash. If it never happens again then clearly there is no faulty hardware.

I'm not trying to defend the chain in question here, even if they can legally refuse an exchange they should do it out of good will alone, but I just don't think the law is as clear cut as some have made out on here.

 

[Gzero]

Hardware failure != Faulty Hardware.

If I get a BSOD on my PC, it doesn't mean a part of my PC has broken and the hardware is now faulty, it just means something happened at that moment in time which caused my PC to crash. If it never happens again then clearly there is no faulty hardware.

I'm not trying to defend the chain in question here, even if they can legally refuse an exchange they should do it out of good will alone, but I just don't think the law is as clear cut as some have made out on here.

Did he buy Software or a Physical Product?

Stop adding in separate cases, in the description on a laptop is a OS and when that OS is not working then the Product is faulty!

He should not have to do anything to get the product into a working order. Your experience is probably as flawed as the poor training you probably received from the big chain.

Within 6 months of the product failing, the onus is on the retailer to prove that the item is not faulty due to defects.

I feel sorry for people who have been turned away or better put fobbed off by thieves like the big chain that taught you.

 

[estebanrey]

Did he buy Software or a Physical Product?

Stop adding in separate cases, in the description on a laptop is a OS and when that OS is not working then the Product is faulty!

You've missed the point of the article I posted.

If you buy a Windows DVD, you are protected against the physical disc from being faulty, you are not covered for faults in the software itself (i.e bugs).

In the OP's case he is covered by the SOG for the laptop's hardware but he is not covered for faults with the OS.

He should not have to do anything to get the product into a working order. Your experience is probably as flawed as the poor training you probably received from the big chain.

Sorry but I'm only quoting the law for you. I don't agree with it either but that is the law.

If I'd have been told the SOG covers software that would be bad training as it isn't true.

Within 6 months of the product failing, the onus is on the retailer to prove that the item is not faulty due to defects.

Correct but this rule doesn't apply to software or intangible goods regardless of whether it comes as part of a package that does include items covered by the SOG or not.

I feel sorry for people who have been turned away or better put fobbed off by thieves like the big chain that taught you.

Why are you getting angry like me? Firstly I haven't worked in customer services for nearly 10 years now, secondly most of knowledge at that time came from studying business law rather than the training I received.

I have already said I'm not defending the chain or the person who turned the OP away so I don't know why you are attacking me like I am.

All I'm doing is stating the law as it stands, I'm sorry you don't like the law but instead of having a pop at me why don't you write a letter to your MEP and get them to change the law so software is covered by SOG?

 

[Linkex]

I don't think its as clear cut as that, although I'm not aware of this having been tested in court. However, the laptop itself is a tangible good, and the operating system is sold, effectivley, as a component of that good, rather than as a seperate entity.

Imagine a smart TV that was completly fine mechanically, but had a firmware bug that killed it. There would be no question as to the retailers requirement to replace it. The only difference is whether the OS is considered "part" of the tangible good, or seperate. It might seem clear cut to us, but if my grandmother bought a laptop and it didn't work out the box, she would have to pay someone to fix it, and I think, if taken to court, that would trump the "Its software, its seperate" issue.

Like I say, its not been tested that I know of, so this is all conjecture.

 

[Jono8]

OcUK are quite happy to deal with the full period of the warranty if you wish.

They werent last year when i had a problem with a disc drive!

Its ok, with some pushing they put everything right.

 

[estebanrey]

I don't think its as clear cut as that, although I'm not aware of this having been tested in court. However, the laptop itself is a tangible good, and the operating system is sold, effectivley, as a component of that good, rather than as a seperate entity.

But the same argument applies to the software DVD example I gave.

Imagine a smart TV that was completly fine mechanically, but had a firmware bug that killed it.

But that isn't a good analogy unless all Fujitsu laptops have the same fault and no company would release a product that didn't work period.

There would be no question as to the retailers requirement to replace it. The only difference is whether the OS is considered "part" of the tangible good, or seperate. It might seem clear cut to us, but if my grandmother bought a laptop and it didn't work out the box, she would have to pay someone to fix it, and I think, if taken to court, that would trump the "Its software, its seperate" issue.

Like I say, its not been tested that I know of, so this is all conjecture.

I agree it's not clear cut and I feel I have to keep reiterating that I'm not here to defend the shop in question or imply the OP doesn't deserve a replacement. The point this isn't clear cut was exactly my original point.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

Hardware failure != Faulty Hardware.

If I get a BSOD on my PC, it doesn't mean a part of my PC has broken and the hardware is now faulty, it just means something happened at that moment in time which caused my PC to crash. If it never happens again then clearly there is no faulty hardware.

No. Computers are logical machines and designed to be resiliant to data loss/corruption. There are extreme vulnerable points, like during a bios update, or during a windows update.

Now a BSOD in and of itself can be as much down to a driver issue as a hardware fault, but a borked boot and corrupted installation does NOT mean derp derp the electron pixies descended and flipped a few bits in places and messed with the data like. For such corruption to occur, an (logically defined, absolute) event must have taken place.

Hardware failure does not happen without a fault. That fault may be software centric, bad drivers or a virus, but it is still a hardware fault non-the-less, and well within your rights for a claim.

 

[Gzero]

-snip-

The OS works.
The drivers for the OS usually are functional as tested by the manufacturer.

The OP has received one that has slipped the net in quality testing and clearly not fit for purpose.

He hasn't tried to install software on top of what he has been sold. Which is why I'm telling you that you are muddling the issue.

If I bought a phone (for text messaging) and the messaging service was broke because of faulty software, they (the retailer) would still have to put it right regardless if the fix was as simple as flashing it.

I know you are not defending either company, I just feel that you might have misconstrued some of the facts you have learned.

 

[Linkex]

But the same argument applies to the software DVD example I gave.

But that isn't a good analogy unless all Fujitsu laptops have the same fault and no company would release a product that didn't work period.

I agree it's not clear cut and I feel I have to keep reiterating that I'm not here to defend the shop in question or imply the OP doesn't deserve a replacement. The point this isn't clear cut was exactly my original point.

Ninja edit - didn't read your post properly, I actually just agreed with you.

I would point out though that there is a difference between the software on a laptop and the software on a disk. Also, the TV example is perfectly valid - fireware might fail after a bizzare set of remote contorl button presses that only 1 OCD guy would ever accidentally enter. It dosen't have to mean that all the TVs would fail, and he would still be entitled to a refund.

 

[estebanrey]

The OS works.

To the person behind the desk (who may not well be a geek like us) all they see is 'Windows Is Corrupt' which would imply a software issue to the laymen.

He hasn't tried to install software on top of what he has been sold. Which is why I'm telling you that you are muddling the issue.

But that is not what I claimed, I'm simply pointing out that in law it doesn't matter if software came as part of the whole purchase it is still software and not covered by the SOG.

It is not muddling the issue, it is clarifying it. You are muddling the issue by pretending that because Windows comes as part of the PC then it is covered by the SOG when it isn't.

If I bought a phone (for text messaging) and the messaging service was broke because of faulty software, they (the retailer) would still have to put it right regardless if the fix was as simple as flashing it.

No they wouldn't HAVE to but you'd expect them to.

This is the difference I think you are missing. Most companies will afford their customers far more rights than they are legally obliged to and due to this many people fall into a false sense of security about what the law actually states. There was a programme on telly the other week where they polled a large number of people and gave them hypothetical situations and asked them what your rights would be. 9 times out of 10 the person thought they had far more rights than they actually did.

When I worked in customer service we certainly gave many customers the benefit of the doubt and only really turned away obvious wee-takers.

I know you are not defending either company, I just feel that you might have misconstrued some of the facts you have learned.

I've not misconstrued anything, software and intangible goods are not covered by the SOG regardless of whether it cam as part of a package or not. That is a fact and the only point to my posts on this issue.

If you want to debate whether the OP's problem is actually a software fault then that is a different topic. All I'm doing is stating the law, not analyzing how Fujitsu and big chain came to their conclusion of the fault's cause.

I just had images of the OP going into big chain like a bull in a china shop citing the SOG and being schooled by wise check out assistant who knows the law on software sales.

I guess what I'm trying to impart is that the OP should avoid the issue of the fault being caused by software or accepting it if asked. He should maintain it is a hardware fault and at no point agree a faulty copy of Windows is to blame. Because if the OP doesn't know the exemption in the SOG for software, goes into the shop and admits it's a software installation bug, the shop would have stringer grounds to refuse the exchange.

 

[estebanrey]

Also, the TV example is perfectly valid - fireware might fail after a bizzare set of remote contorl button presses that only 1 OCD guy would ever accidentally enter. It dosen't have to mean that all the TVs would fail, and he would still be entitled to a refund.

I'm still not sure that legally speaking you are entitled to a refund but anyway there is a difference between software that comes built into a specific machine, was designed only for that machine and can not be found anywhere else and an OS like Windows which is a commercially available product outside of buying a Fujitsu laptop.

Windows is not the same as firmware, it's an aftermarket optional OS (You could have Linux instead for example) that been installed well after the physical laptop was produced.

 

[Gzero]

But that is not what I claimed, I'm simply pointing out that in law it doesn't matter if software came as part of the whole purchase it is still software and not covered by the SOG.

It is not muddling the issue, it is clarifying it. You are muddling the issue by pretending that because Windows comes as part of the PC then it is covered by the SOG when it isn't.



No they wouldn't HAVE to but you'd expect them to.

This is the difference I think you are missing. Most companies will afford their customers far more rights than they are legally obliged to and due to this many people fall into a false sense of security about what the law actually states. There was a programme on telly the other week where they polled a large number of people and gave them hypothetical situations and asked them what your rights would be. 9 times out of 10 the person thought they had far more rights than they actually did.

When I worked in customer service we certainly gave many customers the benefit of the doubt and only really turned away obvious wee-takers.



I've not misconstrued anything, software and intangible goods are not covered by the SOG regardless of whether it cam as part of a package or not. That is a fact and the only point to my posts on this issue.

If you want to debate whether the OP's problem is actually a software fault then that is a different topic. All I'm doing is stating the law, not analyzing how Fujitsu and big chain came to their conclusion of the fault's cause.

I just had images of the OP going into big chain like a bull in a china shop citing the SOG and being schooled by wise check out assistant who knows the law on software sales.

I guess what I'm trying to impart is that the OP should avoid the issue of the fault being caused by software or accepting it if asked. He should maintain it is a hardware fault and at no point agree a faulty copy of Windows is to blame. Because if the OP doesn't know the exemption in the SOG for software, goes into the shop and admits it's a software installation bug, the shop would have stringer grounds to refuse the exchange.

Read: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...erstanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/

So lets recap.

You are saying that the OP has nothing he can do because Windows happens to be the issue?

His laptop needs investigated into why it won't start Windows.
The retailer has refused to do this even though it is within 6 months.
The retailer sold him a "working" laptop that comes with Windows.

Not sure why you want to argue this is a grey area?
How can it be?
The laptop simply hasn't functioned the way it is supposed to since first time he switched it on.

The retailer is supposed to establish what's wrong with it, not consumer as far as I am concerned.

I really think you are confused over the software side of things. Had the OP bought software like an anti virus then sure he can't take that back, but he hasn't. He has bought a laptop that is described as working with the OS installed. Which it doesn't?

 

[estebanrey]

Read: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...erstanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/

What is it about the sentence "Computer Software is not covered by the Sale of Goods Act" do you not understand?

I know what the SOG says, I studied it at University but it is irrelevant if it doesn't cover what the manufacturer are claiming is at fault.

So lets recap.

You are saying that the OP has nothing he can do because Windows happens to be the issue?

No I am saying the OP should not agree if the retailer says it's a software issue and he could be willingly weakening his case.

For the 50th time, my concern here is for the OP not the shop or Fujitsu.

His laptop needs investigated into why it won't start Windows.
The retailer has refused to do this even though it is within 6 months.
The retailer sold him a "working" laptop that comes with Windows.

Not sure why you want to argue this is a grey area?

The grey area is whether software faults are covered by the SOG or not. I don't see how referring to the SOG's wording helps if it doesn't cover the issue.

Also, it seems you didn't read your own article because if you had you would have seen this bit...

What you need to do to prove your claim

If your claim under the Sale of Goods Act ends up in court, you may have to prove that the fault was present when you bought the item and not, for example, something that was the result of normal wear and tear.

So ultimately if the fault wasn't present when the OP bought it and it wasn't the result of normal wear and tear then the SOG wouldn't cover him anyway.

Bad luck isn't covered by it either.

How can it be?
The laptop simply hasn't functioned the way it is supposed to since first time he switched it on.

I agree but it's the "why" which is the question here. By your logic, I could buy a toaster, throw it in the bath and then take it back the next day claiming it doesn't do what it's supposed to and they should give me a refund. Of course I'm not comparing that to the OP's situation but the SOG isn't a form of insurance that ensures everything you buy must work perfectly for 6 months regardless of what you do with it.

The retailer is supposed to establish what's wrong with it, not consumer as far as I am concerned.

But the law isn't based on what you think should happen.

I really think you are confused over the software side of things. Had the OP bought software like an anti virus then sure he can't take that back, but he hasn't. He has bought a laptop that is described as working with the OS installed. Which it doesn't?

But the law doesn't see it that way, you bought a laptop that came WITH a copy of windows. There is nothing in law that says Windows is a fundamental part of the laptop (whether you or I consider it to be is irrelevant), it is considered optional software and it doesn't matter if you buy a blank laptop for £200 and then £50 on Windows or you buy a laptop with it pre-installed for £250.

 

[quickshot89]

But the law doesn't see it that way, you bought a laptop that came WITH a copy of windows. There is nothing in law that says Windows is a fundamental part of the laptop (whether you or I consider it to be is irrelevant), it is considered optional software and it doesn't matter if you buy a blank laptop for £200 and then £50 on Windows or you buy a laptop with it pre-installed for £250.

Just to enhance this point, which is the truth of how the law works, as ive used this before at work when someone got real arsy with me. As soon as you click 'Accept' for the windows licence, you have changed the way the laptop came from the factory, hence why software isnt covered by law.

The op should get a replacement under good will, but ill say it again, treat someone like they are muck, will not get you anywhere

 

[Nitefly]

Not that I currently have access to halsburys, but on face value I disagree with your analysis estebanrey. It's overzealous and I think arguing that there is a distinction in the way that you have is bogus. Software does have it's own unique laws, but ultimately the contract was for a working computer and a laptop not turning on when pressing the power button is not a laptop free of minor defects - in my mind that is that. If your analysis was correct then both the retailer and the manufacturer could endlessly deny accountability as described in the OP, which is obviously not how the law is supposed to operate.

 

[yer_averagejoe]

I suspect part of the problem here was that you knew what you were talking about when you went and spoke with them.

If you'd been an old lady and said "I took it home, turned it on and it doesn't work", I'm sure they'd have done something about it. I can't imagine them telling an old lady "tough" (which is effectively what they said to you).

Maybe you should go back in, speak to someone else and just play stupid but firm. They'll give in eventually.

 

[estebanrey]

Just to enhance this point, which is the truth of how the law works, as ive used this before at work when someone got real arsy with me. As soon as you click 'Accept' for the windows licence, you have changed the way the laptop came from the factory, hence why software isnt covered by law.

The op should get a replacement under good will, but ill say it again, treat someone like they are muck, will not get you anywhere

I suspect part of the problem here was that you knew what you were talking about when you went and spoke with them.

If you'd been an old lady and said "I took it home, turned it on and it doesn't work", I'm sure they'd have done something about it. I can't imagine them telling an old lady "tough" (which is effectively what they said to you).

Maybe you should go back in, speak to someone else and just play stupid but firm. They'll give in eventually.

Thanks quickshot and agree with averagejoe. If the vendor knows that software isn't covered by the SOG and you go in an explicitly claim your issue was caused by software then you could be buggered.

Had he gone and just said "It don't work" and kicked and screamed (metaphorically obviously) about it he'd had probably got a straight replacement.

 

[Gzero]

Thanks quickshot and agree with averagejoe. If the vendor knows that software isn't covered by the SOG and you go in an explicitly claim your issue was caused by software then you could be buggered.

Had he gone and just said "It don't work" and kicked and screamed (metaphorically obviously) about it he'd had probably got a straight replacement.

But it doesn't work, OP told us that he switched it on and half way through loading Windows it switched to a black screen. It no workie

Therefore the store's advice of telling him to goto the manufacturer is completely wrong. Tesco tried to do the same to me, but you just hold on the line and their tech support answer and do as required.

 

[Jest3r]

I had a lot of fun shooting down the "I've just watched Watchdog and know my rights brigade" by naming the actual laws and sections (not that I can remember any of that now) that allowed me not to refund the 6 year old kettle they were trying to return.

You probably refer to the sale of goods act and the 'fit for purpose' clause

 

[quickshot89]

But it doesn't work, OP told us that he switched it on and half way through loading Windows it switched to a black screen. It no workie

Therefore the store's advice of telling him to goto the manufacturer is completely wrong. Tesco tried to do the same to me, but you just hold on the line and their tech support answer and do as required.

The OP claims he turned it on, set it up and restarted the laptop, he has already changed the software in the terms of the manufacturer, which is the point i was backing up.

Again, if you go into any shop all guns blazing people wont help you, you wouldnt want to help someone if they come in and start screaming at you now would you?