Nice to see some forum members making me chuckle on my lunch break
She'll be lioned in the north...not so much in the south.
it's not that they make me chuckle, some views for support for Thatcher are just so eh eh are you for real..
Baroness Thatcher has died.
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it's not that they make me chuckle, some views for support for Thatcher are just so eh eh are you for real..
Indeed, I saw it posted on Facebook and agreed with every-word. Didn't know it had come from Morrissey so cheers for that I'll make sure I quote it when I no doubt use it again.
Now hows about refuting his points, ohhh wait you can't because it's all true
Whats there to refute...
Sinking a warship during a war?
Letting some terrorists who intentionally starved themselves to death to carry on doing what they chose to do?
i think this is spot on tbh.
we're raising a generation of pampered weaklings who love to strike, cause a scene, demonstrate against anyone or anything who wants this country to stand up strong and tall. morons.
Soldato
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This is a public internet forum and you said
Is
showing a "modicum of restraint and respect" considering you posted that within 10 minutes of her reported death? If you were her "surviving family" how would you feel some random stranger saying that about their daughter/sister/aunty etc. Whilst you may have been correct in that stupidity kills, do you think that was appropriate given the timing and your above stated beliefs. Hypocrite much..? Not even sure why your attempting a futile defence of the indefensible.
What has partying in the streets got to do with it? You said
Was 10 minutes over the mourning period for you? And given you said
Some would think Margaret Thatcher doesn’t really deserve respect. Is respect to be shown to only people you think are deserving of it or is it dependent on personal opinion?
You also said
Some people, in fact a **** load of people, don’t think Margaret Thatcher deserves any respect for what she did to them in their lifetime, are they now supposed to respect her purely because she has died? Again hypocrite much...
What has the way they both lived there lives got to do with it, since neither was a child rapist or mass murderer. Simply form different times, different careers etc. One could say one entertained millions with her music, help raise money and awareness for the homeless along with numerous other charity works, whilst the other made millions suffer, so that argument is baseless too. You failed to show any "modicum of respect in their mourning period" for Amy Winehouse and in fact made arguments against why she should be shown any respect after her immediate death.
Maybe you should practice what you preach more than you preach.Where was your common courtesy to Amy Winehouse’s family? This is a public forum right?
Yea if you're living on Mars and think such comments within 10 mins of someone’s reported death on a public platform is showing restraint
Hate to have you speaking at my funeral...
So you’re saying your comments in the Amy Winehouse thread were rash, irresponsible and judgemental? Because quite simply you jumped on the bandwagon in publically being disrespectful towards her in the time frame that would be agreed on being the mourning period. Yet you also feel we should be respectful during the mourning period for the Thatcher household, simply because she has died even though if you feel she didnt earn it during her lifetime?
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there was a good interview on this morning earlier too (yes, i'm off work with man flu :/) with one of thatcher's cabinet members who described her leadership style as 'this is my idea and this is how we're going to go forward and achieve it'. he compared it to the tory parties of recent years leadership style which went a little like this 'this is my idea but if you don't like it, i have these ideas too'.
I'm not claiming life was easy in the 1980's but looking at the Prime ministers I remember since I was older than 15 and taking an interest in life.
Harold Wilson
Ted Heath
James Callaghan
Margaret Thatcher
John Major
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
David Cameron
None of them made my life particularly stress free or easy, however thay all have enabled me to go to school, get on and earn a living over the past 50 years or so.
At no point did I say, hey this guy is making my life too easy or too hard. So my tribute to Maggie amongst others is that she did a particularly hard job reasonably well to the benefit of the country. The ship still floats.
Life is like that, with some winners and some losers whoever is in power. With some you get more benefits others you pay more taxes, overall at the end there is little differential.
Harold Wilson
Ted Heath
James Callaghan
Margaret Thatcher
John Major
Tony Blair
Gordon Brown
David Cameron
None of them made my life particularly stress free or easy, however thay all have enabled me to go to school, get on and earn a living over the past 50 years or so.
At no point did I say, hey this guy is making my life too easy or too hard. So my tribute to Maggie amongst others is that she did a particularly hard job reasonably well to the benefit of the country. The ship still floats.
Life is like that, with some winners and some losers whoever is in power. With some you get more benefits others you pay more taxes, overall at the end there is little differential.
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The recent teachers' strike was a great example. They were striking because they were getting a 1% pay RISE, which didn't meet the 2.x% that they required to keep up with inflation. They were striking because they were getting a pay RISE. This sort of thing makes me extraordinarily angry, and it damages their reputation. Like most, I do feel that teachers are underpaid, but not by much, and their enormously long paid holidays MORE than make up for this, in most cases (several teachers in my family, I know what I'm talking about).
When the recession hit, many people lost their jobs, took pay cuts, lost their bonuses or just remained stagnant but still in work. Complaining that your PAY RISE is too small is just completely absurd, during a recession.
The crux of it, for me - people should be damned grateful for their jobs, during a recession! If you keep your job, be glad. If you keep your job and lose your bonus, be thankful you have your job. If you keep your job and get a pay rise, however small, you should be damned grateful!
It's greed, essentially. People are far too comfortable - they're too used to being propped up and cushioned when the S hits the F. People aren't scared of losing their job any more, even during a recession. It's quite amazing, really. I will raise my children to expect nothing and to be grateful for everything, and that you make your own success in life. This, apparently, is the direct opposite attitude of a great many people in this country today.
a Craterload of Multiquotes?
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Ah go away will you. We've had too much of this nonsense in this thread already. If we all took your stance and only commented on stuff happening during our time we might as well remove history lessons from school.
Exactly, her policies still affect people today so they have a right to comment on the subject whether you like it or not. Can't stand the owld bints on here who think the youth can't have a say on the matter. Some of them probably know more about the subject through study or reading into it anyway.
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Absolutely. It's infuriating! And the irony of it is that, actually, those who were old enough during her time in power are probably very one-sided in their views on the matter. It's far easier for those of us who were just kids at the time to take a more balanced view. It's not really any different than our ability these days to see a more balanced view of any leaders throughout history - during their time people usually either loved or hated them.
Soldato
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True however, the greed/power is in my companies hands now and they can do whatever they like when they like, and they do.
The balance has been shifted from one extreme to the other and it's not healthy.
BTW I work for a newspaper.
I know what I said, and I know what I meant by it. Facts are facts, she was stupid, she died because of her own life choices, as tragic as that is doesn't remove the inherent stupidity in continuing a lifestyle that you know will kill you especially after so much help and rehab etc to teach you how to deal with addiction and so on. As for this being a public forum, I think I mentioned that in the other thread at the time as well in reference to her family...again I never made any comment on what peoples opinions of Thatcher are in this thread, only that I disagreed with street parties and public vilification in the form of active celebration.....I did not celebrate Amy Winehouses death, quite the opposite in fact, something that you want to ignore..again.
And no, you do not have to show respect for either person (again I stated quite clearly that faux respect was what I was speaking about, both times) at the same time you do not go out celebrating the death of anyone..I did neither in either example. I was not disrespectful publicly either, I stated as much in that thread and in this one....which you are clearly ignoring. Selective quotation is not really objective or honest.
And again no I was not rash or judgemental, I merely think that she should be praised for the charity work she did do while she was alive, at the same time she was still stupid for her actions and she didn't deserve the outpouring of false emotion and respect that she did simply because she recorded an arguably seminal album, it isn't a binary position, it is an objectively critical one, she was not a very flawed character something that you cannot seen to understand in any conversation that you have. I have not made any demands of anyone to show respect to Thatcher in this thread, I was refering to the Street Parties and the Public Celebration of her death, not what individuals opinions of her....again something you cannot seem to grasp no matter how often its pointed out you, both in this thread and one you resurrected from over a year ago. And remember my opinion in the other thread was not about Amy Winehouse, but about the defence of irreverent British humour which you attacked in your initial post....I am not going top go over the entire thread again just to salve your bruised ego, I stand by my opinion in that thread and likewise in this one...neither are contrary to each other or specifically related to each other as they deal with different things and different circumstance.
I wouldn't speak at your funeral, I don't know you, but if I did and I spoke, it would be respectful and polite and in-keeping with a demeanour appropriate for the occasion...whether I thought you were a total arse or not would be immaterial.
You are, as usual, assuming far too much about my opinion as well as derailing one thread by attempting to resurrect your nonsense from another.
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And you would be wrong. I was in the poll tax riots, come from a large mining community, and supported Thatcher. Too many people forget the mining union were trying to freeze Britain so they could have a pay rise, the Belgrano was fair game even according to Argentinians and Thatcher opened up a lot of closed communities like finance to anyone who was able. She want a saint but were talking politics here not the pope.
It exists, we may dispute the nature of it's existence but the actions of those around us (in society) along with our ranking (in society) are measurable in social groups of humans & animals.
My support for behaviourism is based off the results of tests/trials & experimentation - but both behaviourism & constructivism both lend support to appreciating the impact environment has on an individuals ability to develop - to judge somebody hard-working or "worthy" in both cases requires equality of opportunity.
Can't argue with that, but to achieve this requires a higher standard of education & greater social engagement on a family level (which also in part requires greater rewards for labour).
I've yet to see any evidence which supports greater income inequality to achieve any positive social goals (be that education, crime, engagement or quality of life) - if any evidence exists to the contrary I'd be please to see it.
I work with data, my entire job is pretty much based around determining the truth value of a claim.
By establishing relationships between variables & determining the underlying causes of a given behaviour.
Based upon what I've read & learning in the fields of neuroscience, psychology, behaviourism, sociology & political history the evidence lends towards certain ideas to achieve certain goals.
Is it "left wing" to suggest a rehabilitation based justice system?, or is it simply inconvenient that facts have a "left wing" bias?.
Studies on human motivation do not support the justification of excessive economic greed, I've seen evidence to support the opposite (that to maximise performance you need to pay people enough so they are not stressed about money).
Studies on crime support rehabilitation based justice (to reduce crime rates).
Not everybody requires the exact same upbringing, besides no studies imply it's the case for every single person - just it's statistically significant.Though you are a bit sketchy when it comes to behaviourism as you only seem to use it to explain poor choices of the disadvantaged and not the poor choices of the advantaged.
Let's put the ball in your court.
What are your goals for society?.
Do you want to reduce crime?.
Do you want to reduce welfare dependency?.
Do you want to increase qualify of life?.
Until I know what your goals are, I can't say if you are misguided in your approach in achieving them - but one thing I do know is that the Conservative party claim all of the above as goals (but enact policies with no evidence to back them up, or evidence exists which suggests the opposite) - I'm not suggesting that Labour don't do the same btw, but not to the same degree.
On the left/right arguments - it's far too simplistic.
Most pro-capitalists talk about liberty, but in a society in which your wage is dictated & only a small percentage of the population can enjoy high wages (Which is required for maximum social inclusion) then how exactly is that freedom?.
Why is it wrong for the state to take taxation to even out the playing field, but OK for business to oppress the workforce via low wages?.
Oppression & authoritarianism can take many forms, most pro-capitalists seem to be arguing to live in a corporatocracy as opposed to socialist state - simply trading the entity removing freedom from one elected (which at least attempts to redistribute wealth the for benefit of many) to one unelected (which has no desire to redistribute the wealth for the benefit of many).
Soldato
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Like i said you may have been correct regarding her stupity.
Which in effect would be similar to someone stating
In this thread. Whilst both may/may not be correct neither of them are exactly showing a "modicum of restraint and respect for just a short time during the mourning period." and are not exactly suitable for your stated beliefs.
Celebrating someone’s death and showing a "modicum of restraint and respect" are two different things. You clearly failed to do this and made excuses and arguments against showing any respect what so ever.
Like a said above, you do not need to celebrate ones death to be disrespectful.. Clearly you can see this? Can you not see that your statement would have been hurtful to the "surviving family" and even more hurtful that you were making arguments against why any respect should be shown towards her? A simple RIP would have sufficed and would not have been over the top emotion towards her and would have shown a "modicum of restraint and respect" during effectively the first few hours of a young womans death
Well obviously it was rash and judgemental as you stated you only found out about her charity works at a later stage
Bold bit - I'm sorry but if simply stating "RIP" or such is to you an "outpouring of false emotion and respect" then i think you’re living on a different planet than anybody else. That would be classed as showing a "modicum of restraint and respect for just a short time during the mourning period." Stating "Hardly surprising. Stupidity kills" is the opposite.
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It seems no one can understand or "get" you points when disagreeing with you
Your opinion is pretty much plastered in quotes, i don’t have to assume anything, if you cannot control yourself by stating your apparent opinion, and then sticking to them, don’t. Or at least have the decency to admit you made a mistake, I was wrong.
I can see why you wouldn’t want your hypocrisy pointed out at a time when your attempting to be all high and mighty requesting others to show respect when, as pointed out, you couldn’t give a dam about respect or decency during the mourning period of someone else yourself..
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