Bob Crow - More harm than good for his members?

The Halk said:
Who pays a prosser in anything but notes? (Sorry!)

I'm actually interested by the revelations about train drivers etc.

I wonder if they would be getting replaced if they had more reasonable salaries - 25K + OT/bank holidays for example. If they cost half as much and didn't have a troublesome union leader then would there be the same drive to get rid of them? You said earlier there would be, but I'm not so sure. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, etc.
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It wouldn't matter, the DLR could have employed drivers on minimal wages if it so chose to do, however it is more cost effective in a new purpose built system to have driverless operations.

We used to have two man operations on bus services ( a few bendys still do), the customer probably got far better service etc, but it is more cost effective to go to one man operations and that is it.

Regardless of what Bob Crow and the RMT do or don't do, I suspect that full driverless tube operations will eventually come about and until the first serious accident or shut-down due to technical failure everyone (except a the Drivers, RMT, Exchequer, Dole figures, Local Business, etc) will be happy as larry.
 
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Wicksta said:
I'm sure your wife does more than press 'Stop', 'Go', 'Open doors' and a few 'Mind the gaps' over the tannoy though. :p

Edit: actually, they have computerised the mind the gap now haven't they, why haven't they reduced pay? ;)
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Her job is pretty difficult, but funnily enough on that day it was just press a few buttons to allow a transaction to process and make sure everyone in the non-uk parts of her company got paid on time.

She done it from home also....
 
Every time Bob Crow opens his mouth he does harm to his members and this country. I'd like to say what I think of him but I'd be banned...

Train driving is a very skilled and demanding job - but because those who do it are so well trained they make it look easy.

When things go wrong is when they really earn their money :) I feel safer on a train driven by a human than one driven by computer.
 
I'll just add here that while Bob Crow and the RMT do represent the majority of underground traincrew,it is ASLEF who represent overground train drivers.

Whilst there is of course some overlap in the two different jobs,there are also lots of differences.

Also,to those saying it's an easy job,unless you have done it yourself you are debating from a position of ignorance at the end of the day.I got involved in the last thread about train drivers and learnt how difficult it is to explain why the job commands the salary it does.I could never and would never try to suggest any job was 'easy' unless I had done it myself.Because you see someone pulling a few levers and pushing a few buttons doesn't mean you know what it's like to do the job day in day out.

I couldn't say whether an underground driver who is there to open and close doors deserves his salary or not as I'm unaware of the level of automation involved.Reading newspapers is the last place I'd go looking for information as according to a lot of the media train drivers of all descriptions are work-shy greedy militant lefty strike mongerers since the strikes of 1982.Does a pilot at 100k+ a year earn his money when a lot of aircraft can take off,fly and land fully automatically? I'm not saying he does or he doesn't but I'm clearly in no position to argue either way.
 
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Nexus said:
"The line is equipped with an Automatic Train Operation system (ATO); the train operator (driver) closes the train doors and presses a pair of "start" buttons, and if the way ahead is clear, the ATO drives the train at a safe speed to the next station and stops there. This system has been in place since the line opened in 1968, making the Victoria line the world's first full-scale automatic railway."
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Pressing a pair of green start buttons was what I used to do when I was 18 working at Legoland operating the rollercosters, but I earned about £4 per hour for it. Suddenly I feel very ripped off :D
 
ExRayTed said:
I'll just add here that while Bob Crow and the RMT do represent the majority of underground traincrew,it is ASLEF who represent overground train drivers.

Whilst there is of course some overlap in the two different jobs,there are also lots of differences.

Also,to those saying it's an easy job,unless you have done it yourself you are debating from a position of ignorance at the end of the day.I got involved in the last thread about train drivers and learnt how difficult it is to explain why the job commands the salary it does.I could never and would never try to suggest any job was 'easy' unless I had done it myself.Because you see someone pulling a few levers and pushing a few buttons doesn't mean you know what it's like to do the job day in day out.

I couldn't say whether an underground driver who is there to open and close doors deserves his salary or not as I'm unaware of the level of automation involved.Reading newspapers is the last place I'd go looking for information as according to a lot of the media train drivers of all descriptions are work-shy greedy militant lefty strike mongerers since the strikes of 1982.Does a pilot at 100k+ a year earn his money when a lot of aircraft can take off,fly and land fully automatically? I'm not saying he does or he doesn't but I'm clearly in no position to argue either way.
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AIAIK a large proportion of pilots make a lot less than £100k, starting salary is probably way less than a tube drivers and they have to spend £100k on training most of the time...
 
ExRayTed said:
Also,to those saying it's an easy job,unless you have done it yourself you are debating from a position of ignorance at the end of the day.
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We've all played Railworks. Why do you think there aren't 'brain surgeon' or 'rocket science' simulators. ;)
 
Burnsy2023 said:
Surely driving a tube train isn't particular difficult? It's a choice between start/stop and how fast.
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and to think they get a package which is in excess of 40 days a year holiday and over 40k a year basic pay.

The solution to travel disruption through strike is simple

New contract is put infront of all drivers telling them they can keep current benefits, but no more strike action. ever.

If they don't sign by the end of that week, sack them.

I guarentee we will have a bit of initial disruption, but within a few weeks they will come back begging for their jobs.
 
Conanius said:
The solution to travel disruption through strike is simple

New contract is put infront of all drivers telling them they can keep current benefits, but no more strike action. ever.
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Shame I think that'd be ever so slightly illegal :D

Non-militant unions serve a useful role in championing the rights of their members, defending them against any unfair practices from their employers and so on. The abuse of this is what encapsulates my opinion of the RMT. There needs to be a way, perhaps through legislation, to prevent union militancy.
 
Conanius said:
and to think they get a package which is in excess of 40 days a year holiday and over 40k a year basic pay.

The solution to travel disruption through strike is simple

New contract is put infront of all drivers telling them they can keep current benefits, but no more strike action. ever.

If they don't sign by the end of that week, sack them.

I guarentee we will have a bit of initial disruption, but within a few weeks they will come back begging for their jobs.
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Well quite a few people get 36 days holiday anyway when you add the bank holidays to statutory entitlements and the 40 days quoted is not correct afaik. It is 7 weeks which is 35 days (5 day week) and includes BH.

Also sacking them in that way would be illegal, you could make everyone redundant and then make then reapply for the jobs available, but you would have to pay redundancy (way too expensive) and then change their job descriptions as to not fall foul of legislation (difficult in such a job). With driver-less operation this would be possible, for although you would still need a 'driver' they would not need the level of training and qualification that a current driver is required to have.

Also you cannot remove the right to join a union or the right to withdraw your labour by force (which this would be), it would take legislation to stop train drivers from having the right to strike (as the military & police) and I doubt that you could legally justify it.


The issues on the London Underground however go a lot deeper than just pay and conditions disputes, there are all sort of underhanded tactics against the Union Activists as well as against the Management, it is like a tit for tat kindergarten. Frankly they should privatise the whole lot and allow companies to tender for the routes and lines.
 
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Castiel said:
Well quite a few people get 36 days holiday anyway when you add the bank holidays to statutory entitlements and the 40 days quoted is not correct afaik. It is 7 weeks which is 35 days (5 day week) and includes BH.
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If you are taking that stance the 26th December 2010 should have been considered a normal Sunday for tube drivers then.
 
Wicksta said:
Because boxing day doesn't fall on a weekend, it moves.
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I understand that, but no firm actually does that. What happens is that the Tuesday (which is the bank holiday) is either ignored in the case of entitlement (substituted for the Sunday) or like we do we pay the Sunday as normal and then Tuesday is paid if you work with a day in lieu, but it is not paid and no day ion lieu if it is a Rest Day. In effect the Sunday is treated like a normal day, but the rotas are adjusted to allow people to take that Sunday as a standard Rest Day.

This is because Christmas Day we run no services at all and Boxing Day there are only extremely limited services and we ask for volunteers to cover those few rota that are required. The two weeks of Christmas and new year is the only time that rotas are amended to reflect the bank holidays, this is almost certainly true of the LU as well.

The same amount of Lieu days are still paid for the year.
 
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Castiel said:
I understand that, but no firm actually does that. What happens is that the Tuesday (which is the bank holiday) is either ignored in the case of entitlement (substituted for the Sunday) or like we do we pay the Sunday as normal and then Tuesday is paid if you work with a day in lieu, but it is not paid and no day ion lieu if it is a Rest Day.

This is because Christmas Day we run no services at all and Boxing Day there are only extremely limited services and we ask for volunteers to cover those few rota that are required.

The same amount of Lieu days are still paid for the year.
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What do you mean 'no firm does that'? I get two days off for Christmas every year. Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Anything else is my normal weekend off.

In other countries if Christmas Day and Boxing day fall on a weekend then it's tough luck. I wonder what Bob Crow would do then.
 
Wicksta said:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're joking rather than trolling. :)
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What? They ARE brain surgery and rocket simulators!

Ok, so the brain surgery one is a little tongue in cheek but the rocket science one is a proper tool.
 
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Driverless trains make sense, imagine being able to get the tube 24/7 as the cost of running will be vastly reduced due to not needing staff I think it's a great idea, also most accidents are caused through human error!!!
 
Wicksta said:
What do you mean 'no firm does that'? I get two days off for Christmas every year. Christmas Day and Boxing Day. Anything else is my normal weekend off.

In other countries if Christmas Day and Boxing day fall on a weekend then it's tough luck. I wonder what Bob Crow would do then.
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No firm gives 4 bank holidays is what I meant. I thought that was obvious. Firms (like ours which run rotas over 7 days, simply alter the Rest days to accommodate Christmas Day and Boxing day,and then Monday and Tuesday are treated as Bank holidays thus everyone still get 2 bank holidays not extra ones like you suggested originally. With us we give 3 bank holidays over the two week Christmas and New year period, the detail Inspectors at each depot have to rearrange the drivers days off to accommodate the 3 bank holidays so that we are liable for the least amount of lieu days possible. (If someone is on holiday or certified sick, we can't do anything about that)

We do not live in another country, but the few countries that do give Boxing day as a statutory holiday they give compensation days if it falls on a weekend.

You were going on about the LU employees getting extra bank holiday entitlement, and I doubt that very much, they simply have their rota's alters to accommodate the weekend timing of the actual days. So if you were rostered to work the Saturday and the Sunday (on a normal week), but your rest days were on the Tuesday and the Wednesday, then all that would happen is the Sat/Sun would become the Restdays and Tue/Wed the working days. The following Mon/Tue would then be treated as bank holiday just like anyone else.
 
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