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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. ultralaser

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 7, 2014

    Posts: 942

    So I think we need a single party (or coallition) with sufficient numbers to convincingly pass legislation either way. At the moment, we're in a complete stalemate because neither side have a large enough majority to either stop or finialize Brexit.

    I honestly think Labour are withholding a GE becuase they believe they will lose, particuarly if there's some agreement between the Brexit party and the conservatives. At the moment (especially in the North of England) we see MPs voting against the majority of the constituants views in the refferendum - a GE is likely to unlock that if the aforementioned Brexit Party / Conservative agreement can be made.

    Personally I think we'll be in this stalemate situation until another GE is held, and if the conversative / Brexit Party agreement isn't sucessful, there's no clear way forward at all.
     
  2. silvagti

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Apr 10, 2013

    Posts: 1,736

    I agree. Another election will just lead to years of bickering and indecision regardless of the outcome.

    This needs a second referendum with two options.

    A) Revoke Article 50

    or

    B) Boris's deal.

    Only then will we be able to move on.
     
  3. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 3,164

    That is the only realistic solution.
     
  4. delta0

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 21, 2012

    Posts: 3,522

    Location: London

    This is the reason Labour have not supported the GE as they know they would lose. This is compounded by the fact that we are into colder months with more rain which is expected to hurt labour more. Once the deal passes next week they will have no option and will have to fight a GE.
     
  5. ultralaser

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 7, 2014

    Posts: 942

    The problem is that there's currently no way either of those options will get through this parliment.
     
  6. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,826

    Location: Here and There...

    It will be close if it is tabled and labour whip it the outcome would depend on the ex tories and the DUP.

    i think plenty of MP’s will see it as a convenient way to wash there hands if it and leave the responsibility with the electorate.
     
  7. Murphy

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 3,068

    Never going to happen then. ;)
    And get accused of not respecting democracy? Never going to happen when they can just kick the can down the road and make it a problem for the next government to deal with.
     
  8. antijoke

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003

    Posts: 37,727

    Location: Stratford-Upon-Avon

    no it won’t, it will lead to a Tory win with a majority and then they can do what they want.
     
  9. silvagti

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Apr 10, 2013

    Posts: 1,736

    It'll be interesting to see how the EU respond. Do they act of the wishes of the UK Primeminister to go ahead with the deal even though it's in direct contradiction to what the UK parliament has requested?

    Presumably they'll put parliament's letter requesting an extension before the wishes of the prime minister? Politically it would create a lot of ill will if the EU signed off on Johnson's deal without the support of parliament.
     
  10. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,826

    Location: Here and There...

    It was close the last time MO’s voted on it and that was without a labour whip and before Boris kicked out half his party.

    I don’t think MP’s are so dull as to believe that more democracy somehow means less democracy. A second vote has an entirely different question and should have been written into the first vote but old Dave was too cocky.
    ie.
    First vote do you want us to investigate leaving?
    Second vote (only if first vote said yes) we have now negotiated the best leave we can do you still want to go?

    this is exactly what other nations have done when asking the public important questions and is more democratic as it gives the public the final say not parliament.
     
  11. silvagti

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Apr 10, 2013

    Posts: 1,736

    I'm not convinced they'll get a majority, especially the way Johnson is behaving, but with the current state of labour and the lib dems you might be right.
     
  12. antijoke

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 28, 2003

    Posts: 37,727

    Location: Stratford-Upon-Avon

    the public won’t care how he’s behaving, the polls all show the tories still having a lead and grouping them all together (yes it’s not concrete I know) would look like giving them a majority of 78.

    i wouldn’t be surprised at that support being because he’s playing a blinder by coming across as trying to get a deal done and everyone else frustrating the process throwing in amendments here there and everywhere.

    you can argue it’s wrong but it’s what he’d fight his election on and would win.
     
  13. LOAM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 20, 2004

    Posts: 11,420

    Location: Nottingham

    But it falls down when FPTP voting system allows for 35% of the electorate to dictate the outcome. It's a singular point that needs addressing, we don't want national policy mixing with brexit. An election is an unsafe way to decide brexit.
     
  14. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 23,653

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    The Tories would win no matter what Johnson did. Labour is weaker than the tea in a greasy spoon.
     
  15. thenewoc

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 5,115

    Location: West Sussex, England

    And the people give it that power through the mandate that individuals have stood for election. It therefore can't simply do as it likes.
     
  16. thenewoc

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 5,115

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Each party will be clarifying what it's standing on through their manifesto or election promises so not sure what's not to understand about that. Each voter is free to exercise their vote in the way they choose, for some it will be the headline issue of Brexit and for others maybe some other burning issue that is dear to them. Overall it establishes what's most important to the electorate and thus serves perfectly.
     
  17. thenewoc

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 5,115

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Not sure Conservatives or Labour can really stand behind any unified position, to be fair.
     
  18. Usher

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 30, 2004

    Posts: 3,125

    Can someone explain how an independent Scotland could rejoin the EU? seeing as they border with England and the complication caused by NI border then how would the EU allow them to rejoin with an open border?
     
  19. thenewoc

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 5,115

    Location: West Sussex, England

    He's complied with the law that compelled him to send 'the' letter requesting an extension. It is however as I understand it the PM's jurisdiction to negotiate treaties so unless that power is somehow removed from him he doesn't have to agree to an extension if one is offered as Art.50 requires both parties to agree to an extension. If the HoC wish to pursue overriding the PM then the right way about that is to succeed with a VONC resulting in a GE with a fresh mandate.
     
  20. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,539

    Location: Plymouth

    You still haven't read the Benn act then?