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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    It's about the death RATE, people might not die DIRECTLY because of it, but INDIRECTLY by it because their circumstances are already dire and any further frustration in their life could push some over the edge into death, the ill (physical/mental), people who rely on a functioning NHS, constant medication, etc.

    Austerity has already modified this death rate for little recourse (we're literally about to spend a recession's worth of ****), so much for that i guess, can't wait for Austerity MK2, because "we spent too much"...

    But people don't like thinking for more than a second, think people literally mean that on Nov 1st people will just die and it'll somehow be Brexit what done it, what a farcical exaggeration of real pain and torment for thousands perhaps millions of people... Brexit was itself literally because people are already in pain from the last recession and said politically engineered austerity that was worthless. I don't see this ending well, because this country can't/won't change.

    It's incredibly annoying that after about a decade of ********, people still underplay the inequality in this country.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  2. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,837

    Location: Cornwall

    @StriderX Well by that metric just about every decision could potentially affect death rates.

    Not giving free sex changes on the NHS could lead to people dying.

    Not giving gamblers £10k every month to pay their gambling debts could lead to people dying.

    Not paying off people's credit card debts could lead to people dying.

    People are going to die one way or the other. Sometimes by their own hand, sometimes because of a combination of bad things happening, sometimes because an over-worked doctor missed a symptom and made a bad diagnosis.

    If people aren't going to be directly killed by Brexit then I don't think we should be framing the discussion in terms of people dying.

    Because, as said, just about every decision even made in Parliament could potentially have contributing so somebody, somewhere, dying. It's also ridiculously hard (impossible) to find causation even if you find some degree of correlation.

    Eg - did the death rate go up last time interest rates went up? I'd bet it could have. Does that mean we should never put interest rates up?
     
  3. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 43,971

    I dunno - if there was a lib/lab coalition afterwards then they'd probably stick on a customs union etc..
     
  4. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,837

    Location: Cornwall

    Yeah but Labour have said they want CU plus single market access and at the same time will end Freedom of Movement.

    Aka cloud cuckoo land.
     
  5. Uther

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 10,145

    Not been following the debacle today, are the Cons going to have the vote tomorrow? And if it passes is that it?
    BitConfused.com
     
  6. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    All the legislation has to happen first ;), i believe.

    There's a difference though because Austerity wasn't "required", it was a political desire and therefore a choice, the wrong one considering other countries growth over that time.

    Brexit is a huge choice (though i'd say choice wasn't the right word...) enacted with little information on what it actually meant, so there's even more problems here, but senseless discussing it now.

    The fact is that if you choose to harm people, then it's your fault, if you had no choice, then it's not. Just like how constantly extolling the virtues of Universal credit when it's hurting people, is a choice, fixing it so it's not hurting them is also a choice, one is obviously better than the other in not helping to kill people through bureaucratic nightmares.

    As long as you're enacting policies that are backed by evidence (a concerted logical approach) and not political conjecture, then people would understand... well they should if they weren't constantly fed **** in tabloids and conspiracies online. Politics in this country isn't about doing what's best, it's about doing what they think is best for them and that's where the inequality comes about and why people needlessly die when there are usually obvious solutions (decriminalising drugs being a big one).
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  7. Dolph

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 17, 2002

    Posts: 47,539

    Location: Plymouth

    Just when you think labour are finally heading towards understanding reality (amending the deal to be subject to a referendum as per starmers tweet earlier), the unicorn nonsense comes back.

    Parliament can't unilaterally rewrite the deal, it doesn't work that way, and even if it did, it wouldn't change what they are voting on now which is the withdrawal agreement, not the future relationship which is all part of the political declaration.

    Idiotic, stupid decision from Labour which I can only conclude is part of corbyn's ongoing desire to force a no deal brexit that is blamed on someone else, either that or they are simply monumentally, stupendously, not even sure how they remember to breath in and out incompetent.

    Labour seeks new alliance to kill off Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal

    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...liance-to-kill-off-boris-johnsons-brexit-deal
     
  8. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 23,613

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    The current state of Brexit:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    Corbyn has to be a plant, there's no ******* way he's this dumb. (maybe he is...) He won't even be alive by the time Labour has a chance at elections from the potential fallout from this...
     
  10. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,837

    Location: Cornwall

    I think there's a much greater degree of gambling in political decision making/policy making that you realise.

    Especially economics. Sure you can model and predict, but ultimately if you require certainty before making a decision, you won't make any decisions.

    People accept a certain degree of risk. They always have. Risk brings reward, but also brings failure.

    Did anyone know exactly what would happen when we joined the EU? You could say that was a bit of a gamble.

    Anyway, I suspect you have a bit of an issue with the Tories in general - and I won't say I disagree with you there. If you expect that particular party to do what's best for the masses, and not prefer the interests of big business/their future career progression, you might be sorely disappointed ;)

    In a 2nd ref I would be voting for remain, btw, and a big part of that is having more trust in the EU legislative bodies than I could ever have in the Tories.
     
  11. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    Ofcourse it's a gamble, usually anyway, but there still policy-party Venn diagrams you should avoid if you want something that actually legitimately helps you. Instead people seem to just enjoy hurting themselves in this country.
     
  12. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 21,837

    Location: Cornwall

    Whilst I agree with the sentiment that Labour are offering a unicorn deal in any case, any amendment would have to be supported by much more than just Labour MPs to be passed.

    So whilst Labour can suggest a whole range of nonsense amendments, they can't pass them without support from other parties.

    I'm totally down with a 2nd ref amendment tho.

    Labour is a mess tho. Just as much of a shambles as the Tories. Maybe more so.
     
  13. Btone

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 23, 2003

    Posts: 1,074

    Location: N.I.

    not really, we were broke, had some of the worst productivity in the world, and "made in Britain" had gone from a sign of being the best, to being a joke. we were at the bottom and could only go up
     
  14. ultralaser

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 7, 2014

    Posts: 940

    Any ideas as to why that was?
     
  15. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    Political malaise, constantly leveraged by the Unions to do something that was impossible, no investment in industry. It's not another countries fault for what we did to ourselves.

    Instead of investment we just abandoned it (ergo everyone involved) in exchange for focusing on the interior of the M25 and little else, which while it's been sort of alright, has ultimately lead to brexit, it's a constant cycle of doing the wrong thing and wondering why it isn't working, then blaming someone else. Brexit isn't the end of this ****** story, it's just an act in the constant disappointment of governance in this country and the public unable to actually agree on a solution because the elite has it arguing on pointless details to distract from the wealth extraction.
     
  16. ultralaser

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 7, 2014

    Posts: 940

    Very much agree with that, and I feel it tells an important story about the UK and a post Brexit world.
     
  17. Uther

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 10,145

    I would love to think that this whole debacle would result in a serious rethink about how our political system works in the UK, but I'm not hopeful.
    Short term thinking and can kicking rules.
     
  18. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    I also forgot to mention that the US was against us all the way until our empire crumbled, though it was crumbling anyway, the US took the opportunity (rightly as any rational superpower should) after WW2 to cement their hegemony, drive us and France out of the ME so they could control the most important resource for global growth.

    It's a sad indictment of a country that won't move on, frankly the system is deeply corrupted and they have no choice but to keep people arguing against themselves or else they're screwed if people realise that the expenses scandals/cash for action is barely the beginning of the reality of how unpatriotic these people are.

    No doubt instead of regulating the likes of Facebook, the government will just ignore it now as it's been so useful to them, even if the country desperately needs transparent and accountable politics, they won't do anything to damage their avenues of propaganda nor will their supporters wish to damage it out of a disingenuous need to keep power so their property prices are protected, at seemingly all costs.

    I do hope this property bubble collapses at some point so we can finally end this charade, at the very least because it's the single biggest reason the high street is suffering (fractional reserve banking is simply a scourge on the landscape), but that comes at a cost, the next recession is going to be disastrous.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  19. Lord-Jaffa

    Soldato

    Joined: Jul 29, 2004

    Posts: 5,855

    Wow, something I actually agree with you on! The property bubble has got to burst and burst on such a massive scale it resets living costs back down to reality. A family home here is now 20x the average wage (up from 3x in 1995), rents are 1300 for a one bedroom flat. Its crippling the working class and the treasurey just makes up the shortfalls. Cycle that cant go on forever.
     
  20. Evangelion

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 29, 2007

    Posts: 23,613

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia

    Farage has doubled down on his opposition to Johnson's deal. It has resulted in an even heavier Twitter backlash than before. He's now being openly accused of trying to prevent Brexit.

    :D