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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. Caracus2k

    Soldato

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 5,120

    Is it your opinion that in the event that the UK ended up revoking article 50 that the EU wouldn't be looking to review the relationship between the UK and the EU?

    Let's see if you have courage in your own convictions?
     
  2. Doobedoo

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 24, 2016

    Posts: 2,061

    Location: South West

    Why not. Corporate business doesn’t want it, corporate media doesn’t want it and these people represent them first, themselves second and the people last.

    Noam Chomsky says as much in this short clip.

    https://youtu.be/9t5jmgnQBss
     
  3. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,003

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Many people (me included) have had to do things we disagree with, its called management.
    Boris is in no different a position if you want to think of it that way.

    It doesn't mean you set out to make it fail, you still (or should) still do your best to achieve the outcome you need to deliver, even if your personal thoughts go against it.
     
  4. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,003

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    There isn't any evidence of that, nor is there virtually anything they can do.
     
  5. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,838

    That is quite comical. Farage has changed his tune considerably.
     
  6. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 19,648

    Of course they wouldn't. We would be back to square one with all the protections and advantages we currently have.
     
  7. do_ron_ron

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Oct 23, 2002

    Posts: 9,522

    Boris 'no mates' Johnson is up in Aberdeen to bribe the farmers to vote Tory in the coming election. Trouble is every poll is showing the Tories set to lose 10 seats to the SNP. His brother resigning really shook him.
     
  8. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,838

    Its like trying to explain electrickery to them time after time.

    They keep trotting out the same lies in the hope of catching another victim, because that is what brexiters are. Victims of scamming. Its Nigerian prince level scamming.
    I do hope that Boris is the last straw for brexit. I just cant take the stupidity of brexiters pretending Boris is the 'man' and his front bench is credible. At least Doobedoo thinks Boris is an idiot. For that they need a little bit of credit.
     
  9. Caracus2k

    Soldato

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 5,120

    Quoting you two in case we need to revisit these claims in a year or so....
     
  10. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    "SNP gain" is probably sucking his boots right now to save him from the embarrassment of his behaviour.

    You know strangely even though it's widely shared that farmers voted for it, but that's only true for England, the other nations did not.

    https://www.bidwells.co.uk/insights-and-research/rural-spectator-farmers-weekly-eu-referendum-poll/
     
  11. Doobedoo

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 24, 2016

    Posts: 2,061

    Location: South West

    Who are they lol?

    I think all politicians are idiots and those that think any of them have your interests at heart are victims of a “Nigerian Prince” proportions.

    It’s like when Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.... Yet people still turn up at those voting stations and still complain when things remain the same.

    Same bloke different hat. Conservatives get into power mess things up causing public outrage, so labour get into power and mess things up causing public outrage.... So conservatives get into power... Rinse and repeat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  12. ron3003

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 25, 2006

    Posts: 1,512

    Location: Skegness

    I see Gina Minger has had her case thrown out.
     
  13. Liefrich

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Dec 22, 2005

    Posts: 1,092

    Location: Cardiff

    It hasn't been "thrown out," the ruling is going to be appealed at the Supreme Court where a case of this magnitude needs to be heard.
     
  14. Tony Edwards

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 4, 2018

    Posts: 3,838

    Sorry I didnt want to assume gender through fear of upsetting or offending you or the internet so used they when maybe I should have said them. He/she sounded condescending. :)
     
  15. Mr C

    Hitman

    Joined: Sep 8, 2006

    Posts: 647

    So, realistically. The options before us are still relatively the same as when we begun...

    The idea that enacting any form of brexit is the end of it is nonsense and herein lies the problem, people think that just getting it done is all that is necessary. The impossibility of trying to advise people that this has and always has been the first PART of negotiations and that it WILL take over 10 years to conclude is unfathomable.

    3 years have passed.. We are still at the first stage. Does the 10 year timetable seem reasonable now? Perhaps we should rehash what the outcomes are still available to happen and how long it takes for these things to be solved.

    The quickest exit of brexit is and always will be a revoking of article 50. Despite what Caracus says it will result in no changes (The UK is still part of the EU, fully integrated and still holds its veto and voting rights, remember the EU election!) There is zero chance of the EU doing anything negative to the UK because we have the power and the right to prevent that from happening. (This option will probably take no more than a week) Although there will be legal challenges, lots of angry people, brexit in its current form will be over, the only way at that point to restart would be parliament starting up article 50 again.

    Politically though this is impossible, there isn't enough MP's in the house nor the appetite for such a manoeuvre.

    The next step down the line is to hold a confirmatory referendum (i prefer this phrase to second referendum) Confirmatory will obviously hold some form of deal (or no deal if preferable) against a remain choice. Do the people really want to begin the second stage of talks, you think brexit is over after this? it's not, do you want to continue with this? Remain wins, revert to the revoking of article 50, leave wins, lets carry on. You could feasibly conclude this and the enacting of the result of the referendum will take a minimum 6 months.

    A brexit with some form of deal will vary in timetables.

    A comprehensive deal such as retaining membership of the EEA and EFTA have already pre-existing agreements, this would still take time to negotiate. The UK would need to negotiate entry into these bodies and other payments and referrals to other external bodies. Although the speediest form of brexit will still take years to ratify and conclude. (1-3 years, perhaps an additional year to need to reconfigure parliament to get to this stage, you will probably need to tack on a referendum too)

    One such as May's deal had such a flimsy backbone it still leaves almost everything to be negotiated for, trade and other issues etc.. You will easily look at another last minute deadline parliamentary impasse, the inevitable backstop kicking in, i would estimate at least 5 more years just negotiating ourselves into a corner of some form, especially considering it will take another General Election to remove whoever puts in this deal. (5-7 years)

    A no deal brexit.... We revert ALL the way back to the start, the first questions the EU will ask is: What are you going to do with the EU citizens already in UK? What are you going to do about your promised obligations to pay the budget of the EU you signed up to? and what is going to happen with the Irish border now? Yup thats right back to the start of the whole thing, shall we retrace these steps, start again at year 0?

    At this scenario, other non-eu countries will hesitate to form any agreement with the UK with its current international treaties with the EU in limbo, the EU will have to be dealt with before anything else. Ignoring the potential for catastrophe in regards to international regulatory bodies, the supply of business and currency issues, this still leads to at least 10 to an infinite number of years of Brexit.

    The reason i mention infinite is simply because if there is any form of long term infrastructure damage or a relegation of the UK's international status, i can guarantee the following generations of citizens will not let anyone forget the dark days of 2020 and beyond.

    So the question isn't about do you want to remain or leave anymore. If you are suffering from brexit fatigue please think about your choices in the future, nothing is as simple as anybody claims it to be. There is no other quick way out, brexit will not end just by leaving.
     
  16. StriderX

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 18, 2008

    Posts: 22,423

    So someone wishes to defend the right of parliament to conduct it's business and you go straight for the childish insult? Would you insult Churchill if he did the same, considering his long and known defense of it's workings?
     
  17. GordyR

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 5,118

    Location: Essex

    "Why Not" isn't a reason for something to likely be true. It has no explanatory power.

    Because it would be horrifically detrimental to our economy, add huge layers of bureaucracy to international trade, and dramatically increase costs to British business.

    It's no surprise that British business thinks it's utterly ludicrous to self impose trade sanctions upon ourselves; of the kind we usually reserve for rogue nations like North Korea.

    Corporate media is overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit. Murdoch, Richard Desmond, The Barclay Brothers, Viscount Rothermere, the Koch brothers etc.

    Which is why they take a pro-Brexit position.

    He doesn't say that at all. All Chomsky does in that clip is describe part of why he believes populism has been on the rise in the EU (the trend is reversing now), that's all.

    This does not in any way support your idea that Boris has been purposefully placed in power to prevent Brexit. As far as I can see, the leap you've made is gargantuan.

    Bearing in mind that you're asserting that there is a grand conspiracy on an international scale here, do you have any actual evidence to support this claim?

    Remember Hitchen's Razor:

    What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

    I'm totally open to having to completely re-evaluate my views, but as a rational, logical person, all claims I'm presented with need to meet their burden of proof before I can assign belief to them.
     
  18. VincentHanna

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 30, 2013

    Posts: 19,648

    That's what drives me mad when you see the Vox pop interviews on the news with people who have no clue: "Just get us out!" "We just need to leave and get it over with"

    As you've said, that's just back to square one and the start of a process, except that now we won't have a nice smooth food supply, easy travel on holiday to the EU etc and then you will have businesses struggling or moving away and people losing jobs as a result
     
  19. Caracus2k

    Soldato

    Joined: Jan 27, 2009

    Posts: 5,120

    A senior figure in the ECJ is already on record about using "appropriate legal instruments" in the case that a country ever tried to revoke article 50 whilst leaving the option open to invoke it at a future opportunity (somewhat understandly to avoid its misuse.)

    The EU would seize the opportunity to place further conditions on the UK to prevent such a scenario ever being able to arise again.
     
  20. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 13,731

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Sounds like Project fear to me.