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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. banbom44

    Gangster

    Joined: Mar 28, 2018

    Posts: 424

    That's your opinion but the biggest thing why people voted for Brexit was immigration in people's minds they think its too high the mistake that Brexiteers made was lumping all immigration together and blaming it all on the EU when the vast majority of immigration to this country comes from outside the EU I think they are in for a shock when we leave and the immigration figures are still high.
     
  2. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 14,727

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Which jobs do you think EU nationals are taking from British citizens?
     
  3. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,466

    Location: London

    There's lots of stuff that's been blamed on the EU that people will eventually realise, after Brexit, was actually the fault of domestic government policies, failure to apply existing EU legislation and rules properly or straight up 'Euro myths'. But the blame game will continue for some time to come because it's easier to scapegoat a relatively faceless supra-national body than to admit the fault lies closer to home.
     
  4. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 33,800

    Location: Co Durham

    So now since the vote and net immigration has increased (from the rest of the world and dropped from the EU) and the Govt own forecasts are for it to continue to increase to 300k per annum and total 3m over the next 10 years, how do you think voting leave has changed these figures? Or are you saying that if we hadnt left these immigration figures would be even higher?
     
  5. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,223

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    I can give you some to start
    Doctors, nurses, technical, engineering, finance (my field I see it)

    Ones there seems to be limited impact on
    Fruit pickers, cleaners, care home workers

    Ones you could argue either way, seemingly hard to find enough no matter their origin
    Factory workers, warehouse operators, builders (general term for all trades)
     
  6. Warbie

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 30, 2003

    Posts: 5,967

    Do you think that's because we're not producing enough ourselves?
     
  7. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,771

    It's not opinion. It's fact. And having said otherwise at the start, you seemingly go on to acknowledge that by conceding that arguments to the contrary are "in people's minds".

    So, in review, you're saying that Brexiteers weren't fascist, they were just scapegoating immigrants unfairly down to mistaken ideas they were fed by populist demagogues.

    That all sounds strangely like what we told in history lessons.
     
  8. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 14,727

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Except we have a shortage in most of those higher level jobs dont we? So they are not exactly "taking" the jobs?
     
  9. Hotwired

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 17, 2009

    Posts: 7,151

    We've been importing foreigners for medical work for decades.

    I know three women from the same family who came across from a commonwealth country to train and work as nurses after a school left from the remains of the british empire taught them english in their country.

    Immigrants taking those jobs we have been constantly advertising to immigrants because the country needs the work done.

    Which then runs slap bang into bloody ignorant joe public who at best will have arbitrary standards on what immigrants they are ok with and at worst, takes thought cues from tabloids.
     
  10. inogen

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 3,795

    No, but that's my considered opinion. It's also an opinion that is supported by an overwhelming weight of evidence.

    So "you don't know that" is neither here nor there. You certainly don't know anything that contradicts it.
     
  11. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,223

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Well arguably they are in many cases the 3rd category for those jobs
    What I mean was they are often competing and getting those jobs over Brits, hence they are taking jobs away from Brits
    Of course the Brits then go for another job and get that one.
    They can "take the job away from a Brit" even if there is a shortage in that sector

    I don't think however thats what the guy who mentioned it really means though.

    There probably isn't a sector in the UK where a job was not awarded to a Brit and hence it was "taken away" if you like that term by an EU citizen.
    Of course we haven't even discussed how many jobs are created because they are here as well.
     
  12. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 14,727

    Location: Hertfordshire

    If there is a shortage then they are not taking any jobs as there are no Brits to fill it, for whatever reason. Then there are the jobs Brits are too arrogant/lazy/too much entitlement to do.

    Of course once the amazing skills based immigration comes in then they will still be taking those jobs anyway, assuming we have not made the place too toxic for people to want to come.
     
  13. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,223

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    Your looking at it far too simply.

    If tomorrow my dream job comes up, I go through 2-3 interviews, some assessments etc then at final stage it gets given to the other person who made it that far, someone from say France.
    It would have been taken from me by a frenchie!!11! Its whether you consider the nationality relevant or irrelevant at that point. There will virtually always be some competition for jobs.
    Hell the job I do now it took 3 months between 1st interview and offer as they were trying to find another candidate so they could check they wanted to employ me. Daft I know, but HR were insistent that no jobs were allowed to be filled without 2 candidates at final stage, and everyone interviewed kept being rejected as not a valid challenger ;)

    However if there is a shortage of my role, then I should have no problem finding a job doing my role, but it may say be at a lower level, or at worse pay. Or maybe I find another dream job a few days later, its still possible however that my original dream job was taken by a foreigner.

    But thats beside the point, taking the jobs from I am sure means nothing of the sort in the context of what I believe he mentioned it in, because when most use those words what they really mean is stop Brits getting a job at all.
     
  14. krooton

    Caporegime

    Joined: May 9, 2004

    Posts: 25,736

    Location: Leafy outskirts of London

    But it is the language used to stir up the frothers, as if a Brit is entitled to a job. No, a company hires whoever they see fit as the best condidate.

    This is more in reference to higher skilled jobs obviously.

    Still, Dey Tik Er Yerbs is an effective way to create Us v Them mentality.
     
  15. Cern

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 3, 2008

    Posts: 3,466

    Location: London

    And on the flip side:

    * Perhaps a job only exists in the UK because the company or organisation offering it is from another country investing here?

    * Perhaps a job can only exist if the company is able to recruit a suitably qualified and skilled compliment of staff, which may not be able to be satisfied from UK applicants alone for various reasons?

    * Perhaps a similar job exists in one of the other 27 countries in the EU? Other EU citizens, including those from countries with strong economies, are willing to make the move for their career, so why not Brits?

    There's always going to be competition for jobs. There's always going to be immigration. Best way to ensure more Brits get the best jobs? Educate and train them better, don't just throw entire swathes of peoples futures down the drain because of underfunded state education, a two-tier education system, a total lack of training of homegrown key workers (e.g. nurses) and saddling all students with insane levels of debt with no decent job prospects for many subjects.

    When a country invests properly in its citizens' education, perhaps they'll get those dream jobs they deserve?
     
  16. PapaLazaru

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 23, 2009

    Posts: 17,577

    Location: RG8

    Because it's actually the sensible and right thing to do? Single issue GE, should have just had a confirmatory vote. What beggars belief, is that if they do gain a slim majority and 'get brexit done', when it all goes **** up, they've got nobody to blame. What's he going to do, blame Corbyn in a couple of years? They will become unelectable.

    Should just had a second ref, remain wins, Boris is secretly happy (we all know he is a remainer) and we can all move on.

    He's a utter dick.
     
  17. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,223

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    I totally agree :)

    Problem is how do you convince someone in an unemployment hot spot to move, or upskill, or seek other opportunities, when they are handed an excuse on a plate, you would have had a job but for those pesky immigrants.
     
  18. PapaLazaru

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 23, 2009

    Posts: 17,577

    Location: RG8

    You can't. They're idiots. An old mate of mine, who lived in a pretty affluent area where we grew up, but was unemployed for a while, decided to move to Cornwall. I don't know why. I think he just got lazy and knew he was less likely to get a job down there, so less hassle from the Job Centre whilst getting a bigger place near the sea. Anyway, his FB nowadays is a rampaging maelstrom of hate for the EU which he blames for his situation. Not the fact that he is a lazy ****, or decided to move to an area that has some of the lowest employment in the UK, whilst living in an area which takes some of the highest EU grants in the UK.

    No, it is the EU's fault and only the EU's fault.

    I blocked him last month.
     
  19. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 14,727

    Location: Hertfordshire

    Its simple, you do what the Leave campaign did, lie, we know it works. :D
     
  20. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 45,860

    Way to miss the point... my argument isn’t an attempt to contradict it but rather that what you’ve claimed isn’t necessarily the case. Why is it you’re unable to follow?