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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,547

    Quite. Many were visibly very frightened by the "He'll turn us into Venuzuela" Project Fear surrounding Corbyn.
     
  2. Skunkworks

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 3, 2005

    Posts: 6,496

    You're welcome to hold the #ItsStillGood position, but good luck convincing anyone outside the Remain bubble that this wasn't a massive rebuke.
     
  3. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,547

    The "Remain bubble" being that demonstrable majority of the population?

    And the "massive rebuke" coming from a minority?

    :rolleyes:

    It's never going to get through, is it?

    And no, it's not a position of "It's still good"

    We all accept - the fight's over, Brexit's happening, no Brexiteer can identify a benefit, and we're giving up our unmatched EU benefits against the wishes of the majority thanks to the manipulation of an easily-led cognatively vulnerable minority.
     
  4. GordyR

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 5,253

    Location: Essex

    I think that you’re still a little confused about what I’m saying here. It’s not about convincing anyone of anything, this is purely a question of logic, reason and critical thought.

    I’ve made no comment about remain, nor have I attempted to portray the GE as being anything other than just that; a general election. All I’ve done is demonstrate that the evidence offered in support of the positive claims made regarding the implications of the GE results, does not actually support them at all.

    Therefore, based purely upon the evidence and reasoning put forward so far, anyone who does believe the GE to be some kind of majority pro-Leave scream by the electorate would not only be demonstrably incorrect, but would be holding that belief for extremely poor and fallacious reasons, and are potentially falling foul of a cognitive bias.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
  5. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 65,673

    I'm no Corbyn fan but the hysteria around him towards the last few days leading upto the election was ridiculous - I'm quite surprised how many acquaintances were buying into the more extreme portrayal of him (full on on the Venezuela, racism, IRA supporter, etc. angles) in the last few days before the election.

    (Though in some cases I suspect they were hiding behind it to justify their Tory vote)
     
  6. Usher

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 30, 2004

    Posts: 3,186

    Really? so the never-ending assault on the intelligence of the population who voted to leave is fully acceptable in this thread then is it?

    There are claims in recent posts that Brexiteers have not actually won, are they also gloating as you put it?

    Did the remainers on this forum not gloat when previous attempts of the government were thwarted by by court judgements and other skulduggery ?? that was o.k was it ??
     
  7. Irish_Tom

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,408

    Indeed, some other quotes of his (or at least, attributed to Goebbels) are quite fitting:

    And, potentially more ominous but currently yet to be seen:

     
  8. Rroff

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 13, 2006

    Posts: 65,673

    I don't deny there are some on the remain side whose posting is more suited to the playground but that is just deflection - there is nothing stopping you or others from presenting a fully reasoned position over Brexit - from the very start it has been hit and run posts from those pro-leave for a long time reposting already discredited claims like forced Euro adoption in 2020/21, etc.

    It seems we rarely truly learn from history.
     
  9. Irish_Tom

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,408

    And so, as the old adage goes, we are doomed to repeat it.
     
  10. Murphy

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 3,247

    Erm, i don't understand how leave won when there wasn't a party called leave, that is unless you're suggesting the Conservatives have been taken over by the former leave campaign, if you are i suspect some supporters of the Conservatives may take issue with that. Also i don't understand how a general election is being misconstrued for a vote to leave when it's called a general election for a reason, are you saying that people didn't vote on the general issues facing the country in this election?
    Well that's clearly a lie as we voted to remain a member of what was to become the EU over 40 years ago and we've been voting for both UK and EU politicians every 5 years since then, if you had accepted that we wouldn't have had the second referendum that overturned the democratic vote from 40 years ago and every UK and EU election since then.
    Well that's clearly rubbish, if you didn't like the fact that the EEC became the EU then you should've voted accordingly, you should've voted for a party or stood as a candidate that was opposed to that.

    Going on leave supporters logic you shouldn't have kept whining about the fact that the country elected politicians that supported the EEC being incorporated into the EU and many other EU related things, the country had spoken and you should've gotten back in your box instead of trying to undo their democratic vote, going on leave supports logic democracy is a one time event and there should be no undoing of previous votes.
    I've been reliably informed (not) that they can't be fallacious reasons as they weren't presented as an argument in a formal setting. :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019
  11. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,547

    Ironically, yours is a pretty stupid post.

    What's being said here is how fallacious your posts are. You clearly cannot come up with a single benefit of Brexit that you're not ashamed of - which is what many of us have said all along - it was all about xenophobia and intolerance of immigrants.

    There's no "never-ending assault on the intelligence" of Brexiteers. What there is is a never-ending torrent of evidence that Brexiteers as a group are less intelligent, less educated, more easily mugged, and less tolerant.

    It's not Remainers saying these things, it's the evidence.

    That you can't distinguish that - and don't appear to have the cognative rigour needed to see it - well, it fits the evidence already mentioned.

    To put it another way - you're adding to the never-ending assault.

    To extend the metaphor - it's not that Remainers are punching Brexiteers, but rather that Brexiteers like you are punching themselves in the face and Remainers are pointing that out.
     
  12. GordyR

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 5,253

    Location: Essex

    :D
     
  13. RobHu

    Gangster

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 319

    Assaults on the intelligence of brexiteers are mostly coming from posts like yours, ironically. And no, it’s not acceptable for people to say that leavers are stupid. Using demographic figures as supporting arguments in a debate e.g. that on average leave supporters are less educated is fine though.

    Your second point is something else that you misunderstood I think. If you go back the last few pages and actually read the posts to which you’re referring then hopefully they’ll become clearer.

    There was certainly some gloating from remainers when the tories were defeated in Parliament yes. Which was wrong.
     
  14. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 14,319

    Location: Hertfordshire

    This one seems to have been the single most used method of the referendum, the Tory GE campaign and most notably Trump(every, single, day).
     
  15. RDM

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 1, 2007

    Posts: 20,232

    I would be very careful with broad brush demographic information like this. Leave support is higher in older age groups which will be less well educated due to the changes in how many we are sending to University.

    Also what tends to happen is this demographic information is then used to suggest that leave supporters are stupid.
     
  16. RobHu

    Gangster

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 319

    You’re correct, I wasn’t actually trying to make a point of it though. Just pointing out how it could be used :)
     
  17. ebilcake

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 18, 2007

    Posts: 923

    Not sure how you can quantify it, either way, to be honest. Neither of us can say with any certainty what percentage voted leave or remain.

    All we can say with any certainty is the Conservatives have a majority in parliament and most of the gains came from Labour, the two factors were Corbyn and Brexit. Many predicted the Labour vote would collapse in leave areas if they offered remainers a referendum and it did.

    It's both a leave win and a Conservative win.
     
  18. nkata

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 7,440

    Location: Cheshire / Staffordshire

    I never went to University. I have had a career as an Engineer on site and in a Civil Engineering design office environment for 40 odd years. I am afraid an implied premise that University increases intelligence or wisdom is false. University allows knowledge to be gained in often quite a narrow speciality. I have observed this in a number of graduate entries over the years where even this speciality knowledge needs to be enhanced by life skills.

    Frequently going straight into working life is as good a route to wisdom and understanding.
     
  19. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,547

    Usually the distinction you've demanded is made.

    What I *would* say is that education increases the likelihood of critical thinking and objective scrutiny of facts and sources. In short - it builds up a resistance to getting mugged by propaganda and those who seek to manipulate you into thinking a certain way.
    I know you went on to make the point about the misuse of education as a proxy for intelligence, but just on the bit I've quoted, I'm not sure how much this needs to accounted for.

    Anecdotally, in my experience, just as many older people I interact with haven't gone to university, many also seem less objective, less able to scrutinise.
     
  20. GordyR

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 5,253

    Location: Essex

    And that has been my point all along. I refuted a claim that you could. That's it.

    I think a basic failure of logic has driven this exchange.

    Allow me to demonstrate with an analogy:

    - I have a jar full of green gobstoppers.
    - I then ask you if you believe that there is an even number of gobstoppers in the jar.
    - You quite rightly say no.

    A person engaged in fallacious reasoning would say that because you do not believe that there is an even number in the jar, you must believe that there is an odd number.

    This is completely incorrect. Saying that you do not believe that there is an even number in the jar, does not mean that you believe that there is an odd number.

    You simply believe neither and have maintained the default position until such time as evidence presents itself one way or another.

    Some people during this exchange have used exactly the same kind of fallacious reasoning.

    They seem to think that because people like myself have pointed out they were incorrect when they claimed that the GE results showed that a majority of people wanted to get Brexit done, that we must believe that the results show that a majority wanted to stop Brexit.

    Hopefully that helps explain what I believe to be the fundamental failure of logic in this exchange a little.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2019