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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. GordyR

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 5,261

    Location: Essex

    Only 47% of the electorate voted for Brexit supporting parties in the General Election, whereas 53% voted for parties who explicitly backed a 2nd referendum or the revocation of Article 50 in their manifestos.

    While we have no true idea of how people would have voted were it a single issue plebiscite on EU membership, you categorically cannot claim that the election result demonstrates that the will of the people is to leave the EU.

    It does not, period.

    If anything, the result is suggestive of precisely the opposite; and just so happens to be neatly inline with all polling on the question conducted over the last 3.5 years, which now suggests that 55%+ are in favour of remaining.

    Given this result, if you were genuinely concerned about the will of the people over parliamentary democracy, then logic dictates that you would now favour a 2nd referendum in order to find out what that will is today.

    If however, you've now backtracked and have instead decided that you care more about parliamentary democracy over the will of the people, then you absolutely cannot complain about MP's in the previous parliament doing their job properly by voting for things that had the effect of temporarily holding up one very specific and ultra-hard version of Brexit, that totally contradicts what the British public were sold during the run up to our referendum.

    So which is it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  2. Murphy

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 3,253

    What are you on about, did i say all? No, i didn't. I said you should explain why you consider the likes of Boris, JRM and the other 118 Conservative MPs are remain MPs, they were the ones who were 'frustrating' Brexit, on three separate occasions. The only person ducking out of answering things is yourself, like a typical leave supporter. Also I'm not attempting to appear clever, i couldn't care less what complete strangers on an internet forum think of me, and what's lead you to believe i have trouble with the word Brexit, i don't.

    And there's is no original question (afaicr), you didn't ask a question, all you've been doing is making spurious statements along the lines of how you think "posters refuse to acknowledge that remain MP's conspired to thwart Brexit", that "Bercow was severely biased in favour of remainers" and that he's "more or less admitted it", those aren't questions they're statements, and spurious ones at that. If I've mis-remembered though perhaps you'd like to provide a link to where you asked this question and links to posts where i "repeatedly duck out of answering" it.

    And yes i agree that some MPs did everything they could to remain in the EU but that didn't 'scupper' Brexit because there was only 114 of them, that's how many MPs voted against triggering A50 BTW. What you're doing is assuming that because MPs couldn't agree on what sort of Brexit people voted for that it meant they were trying to 'scupper' it.

    It's what people who support leaving have to do because if they admit MPs were actually doing their job and trying to sort out what sort of Brexit people wanted then they'll have to admit they didn't know what they were voting for. If they admit the likes of Boris, JRM and the other 118 Conservative MPs who voted against Brexit on three separate occasions were simply doing it because they didn't like the version of Brexit that was presented to them then they have to confront the fact that they were sold something site unseen, that they only won because they conned people into voting for all possible permutations of Brexit all the way from staying in the single market to leaving without a deal.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  3. Btone

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jan 23, 2003

    Posts: 1,133

    Location: N.I.

    I see BoJo is breaking more of his promises, after tell the N.I. parties that if the go back in to government, he give them the funding they need to sort out their problems ( estimated to around £5 billion). now they back he told them they only getting a extra £1 billion. so don't hold out hope for all the extra spenning for england
     
  4. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 33,110

    Location: Co Durham

    And they are surprised at this? Same with the 50,000 nurses. Its all lies designed to be swallowed up and accepted by the gullible.
     
  5. Uther

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 10,346

    I wasn't even surprised when the story broke.
     
  6. AndyT

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Oct 14, 2009

    Posts: 1,385

    Location: Aix-en-Provence

    So, taking all this into account and not making any future forecasts. What are the upsides of BREXIT, in your opinion? Remember you can't make any predictions.
     
  7. Kermit

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 27, 2002

    Posts: 2,588

    Location: UK

    you won't get me replying again (besides this post) this side of 31st Jan but possibly not for a good after that (6-12 months) till the effects (or lack off) are known, for now its not worth it as we're leaving and thats that.

    So don't keep quoting me, I'll likely quote my own posts in due course ;)
     
  8. Washout

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jul 2, 2003

    Posts: 1,702

    So, effectively throwing (loaded) dice on the country's future. Brill.
     
  9. GordyR

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 5,261

    Location: Essex

    You're aware that on January 31st we enter an 11 month transition period and that nothing changes in our economic relationship with the EU until that ends right? If you had said 3-4 years that that might make more sense.

    But even so, I suspect that in the same way that you've casually dismissed the fact that the pre-referendum forecasts ended up being almost perfectly aligned with what we've experienced over the last 3.5 years; you'll simply manage to hand-wave it away and mentally dismiss it, if in another 3 years time their forecasts for the years following us actually leaving also turn out to be correct.
     
  10. Murphy

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 3,253

    And people said there were no benefits of Brexit, first it was Blue passports, then it was a new design on a 50p coin and the Big Ben bong, and now Kermit apparently won't be replying to anyone for 6-12 months. ;)
    Oh you and your doom and gloom forecasts. Any proponent of leaving the EU knows we would've left in a couple of weeks and such massive changes to the economy, society, and a top down reorganisation of a country that will effect generations to come only takes 6-12 months to shake out, take the 2008 global financial crash for example, we were over that in a few months. :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  11. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 44,922

    This is rather bizarre - he is a remainer AFAIK, or at least he is now... did he previously vote Brexit and you only respect him because he's changed his mind and/or is mostly posting pro-remain/anti Brexit stuff now?

    @Uther did you vote for Brexit?
     
  12. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 44,922

    Of course they are, I mean apparently some of the scuppering was due to supposedly sincere worries about the UK crashing out via trickery... some were just openly trying to stop it... or call for another vote because the plebs people didn't know what they voted for the first time. Of course that in turn leads EU types to hope they could reverse it too.

    TFW someone wins a small victory that in the end amounts to **** all except for a pointless delay that actually ended up being rather unhelpful for both the UK and EU:

    [​IMG]

    Now apparently they're banging on about there not being enough time etc.. to agree future trade arrangements despite the timeline already being agreed etc.. and them agreeing to the extension - that was a free choice, the UK Government made it clear that it was both willing to sign up to the agreed WA and made it very clear that it didn't want an extension/was forced to request one via the surrender act.... the EU instead agreed to the extension and now EU officials are bleating about there not being enough time when we could have left at the end of October last year had it not been for them and the remainers in Parliament. If there is a heightened risk of no deal at the end of the transition then it's thanks to them and their silly antics leading to there being less time in the first place.
     
  13. Uther

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 10,346

    Yes, I did vote for brexit, I have never been a 'remainer'
    My vote was in no way because I thought it would be good for the UK, in fact I thought exactly the opposite. I want a united Ireland, brexit for me is a tiny step on that journey.
     
  14. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 44,922

    Ah OK, so not so much a "sincere voter for Brexit" as someone voting for Brexit for rather tangential reasons.

    Not saying you're not a sincere person tho... and no doubt the other poster was referring to that too rather than your reasons for your vote but still it is good to put it into context. :)
     
  15. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,555

    A sincere voter for Brexit, in that he had a sincere reason for voting for it that he is able to share with the rest of us, and which stands up to scrutiny, rather than quickly unravelling as fallacy.

    Hope you can understand that.
     
  16. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,555

    The state of this...



    How low they've brought us.
     
  17. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 44,922

    Ah I was open to the possibility that you were referring to him as sincere, I'm not sure his reasons for voting for Brexit are too sincere... he's of the opinion that it's a rather negative thing but voted regardless for other reasons.
     
  18. nkata

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 7,458

    Location: Cheshire / Staffordshire

    There will be enough time but for a barebones partially aligned trade deal. To reach a full deal will take several iterations I expect. That should be enough to keep industry exporting goods without delays. There will be pressure from the EU countries to reach agreements on tariff free access to the UK for some areas like automotive and agriculture where we are very well aligned. I expect financial services to take longer as they would like more freedoms in that area.

    I doubt that there will be a no deal in 2020.
     
  19. Murphy

    Mobster

    Joined: Sep 16, 2018

    Posts: 3,253

    I thought no deal was meant to be better than a bad deal, a barebones partially aligned trade deal that 'should' be enough to keep industry exporting goods without delays and ignores our biggest sector that in many cases goes hand in glove with the goods we export doesn't sound like a good deal to me, i can't see someone like Rolls Royce just selling Trent's without the services that go along with them.

    Seems a bit daft to set an arbitrary time limit on getting a deal within a year when there's an option to extend, that simply seems like hubris on Johnson's behalf or him capitulating before the talks have even started like he did when he dug out May's WA from the bins outback that had been thrown away 3 years ago, you know the one that May said no UK Prime Minister could ever agree too.
     
  20. ltron

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 30, 2014

    Posts: 1,842

    We won't know the effects until we leave the transition period (currently end of December this year), until then we are still in the trading institutions of the EU but without political representation so we have to accept all new rules (while we are in it). Therefore, until this ends very little will change. Johnson will use this trick after the 31st of January to disingenuously claim the doom mongers were wrong, I'm sure.