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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. Kermit

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 27, 2002

    Posts: 2,802

    Location: UK

    another avoidance. Try again as posting non-answers to the only person remainers have to debate in this thread today (so far) is going no where, your just taking jibes at me but avoiding answering a simple set of queries which so far is demonsrating why bothering trying to debate with remainers is pointless....3 more posts max before I leave you all to moan back and forth with each other unless I get a sensible reply

     
  2. Entai

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Feb 28, 2004

    Posts: 73,012


    Yes those things you mentioned altered history.

    But history, by very definition, is in the past.

    The past by very definition cannot be changed.

    But we can learn from its mistakes, and make the future better.

    Making anything better assumes you have some control over it.

    Being out of the EU reduces our control over the future of the EU, and therefore is a worse position, than still being in the EU where we would have some control and/or influence over the future of the EU, to move it in a direction away from the negative future you perceive it to be heading towards.
     
  3. JeditOjanen

    Soldato

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 5,157

    https://twitter.com/dril/status/831805955402776576
     
  4. Mercenary Keyboard Warrior

    Capodecina

    Joined: Aug 4, 2007

    Posts: 10,479

    Location: Wilds of suffolk

    How the **** did you take my post above to be in response to whatever post of yours you were referring to?

    It was meant for Entai but a few other posts managed to get between us

    He mentioned 5 years till election, but it is in fact only just above 4
     
  5. GordyR

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 1, 2003

    Posts: 5,366

    Location: Essex

    Once again, everything above is entirely superfluous to your argument, which at it's core has been exposed as broken logically. This is you continuing to squirm and obfuscate.

    You're attempting to drive discussion away from the now entirely exposed logical contradictions in your argument, in the hope that we will simply forget it, and allow you to move on to something else.

    Well sorry, that's not how debating works; especially not when your attempt to do so is so glaringly obvious.

    By all means, go back and pick your argument up from where you first entered this strange and utterly meaningless language definition rabbit hole of sorts.

    As I've repeatedly suggested, perhaps going back and starting from my post on the matter would help:

    https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/t...he-new-thread.18864476/page-854#post-33349685

    Although I do wonder if it was me stating the following, that sent you off on this bizarre cacophony of confusion and extreme attempts to justify your position to yourself in the first palce.

    If it wasn't that, then perhaps it was that I demonstrated to you that the logic you described for voting leave, also requires you to vote for remain; meaning that your logic leads to multiple contradictory conclusions:

     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  6. DarkHorizon472

    Mobster

    Joined: May 16, 2007

    Posts: 3,188

    Very true the time for discussing the past is over, we have left the EU. The future is what important.

    Why do you think no one supporting Brexit can explain the future positives from Brexit ?

    All they do is deflect, insult people and do everything they can not to answer the simple question. The ones in favour of the EU continually go into a lot of detail explaining it's positive.
     
  7. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 6,469

    Amd while thread is consumed by the massive disconnect between one poster's actual and self-perceived intelligence...

    The news keeps rolling in....



    :D

    It'll be interesting to see whether they end up shafting the wealthy Brexiteers dodging tax, or whether the Brexiteers protect themselves in return for some concession elsewhere in the trade talks - like banking access.
     
  8. Entai

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Feb 28, 2004

    Posts: 73,012


    I got it :p



    Thanks for the correction, 4 years , 5 years, still plenty of time for Boris Cummins to wreck this country.

    Certainly while they are in power I for one definitely see zero upsides.
     
  9. Rilot

    Don

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 20,190

    Location: Wargrave, UK

    I think the Tories will be in power for at least 8 years, maybe more. Labour are an absolute shambles and it's looking more and more likely that they are going to continue that trend by electing a more-of-the-same leader.
     
  10. Kermit

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 27, 2002

    Posts: 2,802

    Location: UK

    Same can be said for remainers, deflect, ignore, insult, quote out of context, twist, in fact anything that that doesn't make them even concede a single point not even when we're slightly off topic and just after a few basic answers wether is what the definition of a forecast is or accepting that the future is not set


    Yes finally, someone answered but only partial, you forgot or avoided that had 52% had voted remain, the course of history would have been altered from the current present but unless you say otherwise I'll consider you accept that would be true (it that had been the way it went)

    we know that, I didn't state otherwise

    true
    totally agree....going fairly well here now

    but then you drift off the point a bit. Yes being in the EU we could help shape the future but by leaving it we're also shaping the future. For sure UK future by leaving but I also have to think also the EU's as perhaps the EU has at least paused any further integration plans it had for the last 3 years and may review how much further it wishes to move forward given 52% of the UK mostly voted that it had already gone too far or in my case it looks like the next steps would be too far for my comfort zone and its was probably a once in a lifetime vote.

    The point I keep trying to make in many different ways that I accept may seem convuluted is that whatever direction the EU is headed, it cannot be guaranteed to end up being something we're all comfortable with. That could be down to Eurocrats doing what they do best which pretty much entails looking out for the EU project (not specifically European nations within it) and there's many factors that can and will almost certainly affect the EU's trajectory for better or worse.

    Can you/anyone accept that last paragraph?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  11. Entai

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Feb 28, 2004

    Posts: 73,012



    WHAT ???????

    How on earth is history not set, it has happened, past tense, it cannot be changed, it is fixed, it is set in stone ?

    How can the past be changed, or are you in actual fact a hyper intelligent alien who has invented time travel without telling anyone ??
     
  12. Kermit

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 27, 2002

    Posts: 2,802

    Location: UK

    sorry one word typo, I did of course mean FUTURE NOT SET & now corrected. History conversely IS SET :)
     
  13. Usher

    Mobster

    Joined: Dec 30, 2004

    Posts: 3,242

    Me? show me posts where you claim I have been dishonest :confused:, take a chill pill, It was actually a light-hearted comment I made but clearly it struck a nerve. Are you also trying to claim that remainers here do not seize every opportunity to belittle Brexiteers with smart*** comments?
     
  14. inogen

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 19, 2009

    Posts: 4,030

    Can I take from that, that you've never really studied history?
     
  15. Entai

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Feb 28, 2004

    Posts: 73,012


    Well obviously, many many decisions thousands if not millions of people have made throughout history, meant that the future from that point could have been different had the decision been different.

    BUT

    The supposition that had 52% voted remain, the course of history would have been altered from the current present, is purely that supposition, it is not fact.

    The known and proven fact is that 52% voted leave, therefore any other version of reality is completely irrelevant, and discussions about it or pertaining to it are also completely irrelevant.
     
  16. Kermit

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 27, 2002

    Posts: 2,802

    Location: UK

    No you can't assume that. I didn't study history past A level but I'm well read up on history, as mentioned earlier I get through about 1 book a week, 50% fiction, 50% non-fiction the later mostly in the areas of Science (mostly physics) and history.

    I think you implying that by me stating history is set that you think perhaps I'm thinking that history is never debunked. That would be incorrect and I know what we thought we knew about something X 100 or 1000 years ago can be changed in light of new evidence or study. I accept that but generally speaking history is set, it happened, its set is just whether what we know of it is 100% accurate and that is another question eg we know pretty much everything about WWII and more recent history, we know a lot less about things 2000+ years ago and its usually the later that gets revised as we learn more from things like archaeological digs.
     
  17. Kermit

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 27, 2002

    Posts: 2,802

    Location: UK

    I didn't say it was fact, it can't be a fact is thats not what actually transpired. I'm fairly careful with the qualifiers (or lack off) I use. But its still a fairly safe assumption if remain had won with 52% of the vote, A50 would not have been triggered especially given the PM at the time of the vote Cameron, was on the remain side. So not fact but in this example its difficult to conceive otherwise?

     
  18. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 12,896

    Location: Here and There...

    Indeed it looks like we are set for a long period of Tory dominance unless BoJo does something truly monumentally stupid. Our two horse system means we are reliant on the labour membership coming to there senses and elected a vaguely sensible middle ground leader with some charisma but even then I suspect the next election is a lost cause anyway the damage done at the last one is too great to turn round in a single cycle.
     
  19. chroniclard

    Capodecina

    Joined: Apr 23, 2014

    Posts: 15,900

    Location: Hertfordshire

    What damage have Labour done exactly in the last 11 years of Tory rule? If Brexit, as predicted and so far, is awful then will the Tories still get in again?
     
  20. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 12,896

    Location: Here and There...

    Labour have done a huge amount of damage to themselves I think that should be pretty self evident and they don't seem to be learning the lessons of the past. When was the last time a properly left wing Labour leader won a national election?

    The Tories got in promising to get Brexit done they will likely stay in telling everyone they got Brexit done. The only way they loose is if either the economy or the SNP implodes which seems highly unlikely.