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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. Mr Badger

    Soldato

    Joined: Dec 27, 2009

    Posts: 6,793

    I'm giving your post a yes and a no.

    A "yes" because there absolutely were many different reasons for people voting for Brexit, but a "no" because I've probably heard them all and they just don't stand up to logical scrutiny. Plus my experience has revealed a clear division between Leavers and Remainers in my family, social, casual and professional acquaintances. I could spell it out, but I will leave you to guess which side were interested in facts and data and which was all about soundbites, feelings and embracing hateful nonsense from the right wing gutter press.
     
  2. kindai

    Soldato

    Joined: Aug 9, 2013

    Posts: 6,661

    Location: Bromsgrove

    Literally sounds like youre describing "woke" right here.
     
  3. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,789

    Of course I'm talking broadly.

    ...That said, there's no evidence to disprove that support for Brexit was a function of ignorance/gullibility, fear, racism, and/or the rare possibility that Brexit might advantage that particular Brexiteer.

    Certainly no Brexiteer here has been able to show otherwise.

    We've had fears about a southern Europe employment contagion catastrophe, a EU dictatorship, some very shonky maths and economics (coupled with the most pronounced example of Dunning Kruger you could wish for) and a guy who thinks his family's business ties with China will stand them in good stead when all other UK companies take a hit.

    Youre hinting that there might be some rational and virtuous reason to support Brexit, and that is something we've not seen in all of the thousands of posts here.

    Oh absolutely. Those who've been fed the "woke" fallacy and use it are generally also those most susceptible to the weak thinking required for those other fallacies

    :D:D:D
     
  4. RxR

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 16, 2019

    Posts: 1,278

    No 'haha told you so' from an anti-Brexitist pov can perhaps be seriously put until the post-Brexit strategy and its actual results over an adequate game-play timeline are known.

    What seems a reasonable period to you where you could be quite sure the adaptation strategy (currently still being engineered / awaiting implementation) is / was flawed?
     
  5. sigma

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 17,159

    Well, do you think it’s been handled well at all? The whole thing is a shower of pop if you ask me, right from the very start of it being a very poorly designed referendum. There have been career driven decisions that put party over policy. This still continues to be the case.
     
  6. sigma

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 17,159

    But not everyone operates logically, especially when emotions are involved. Emotions stoked by people who stand to gain...
     
  7. RxR

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 16, 2019

    Posts: 1,278

    I'm of the view that "all's well that ends well". But the current stage of affairs (seems to me) is not even the end of the beginning.

    The new chief exec of Britain Inc (and his team) has hardly been given enough time yet imo.

    Compare, for example, if he were simply newly appointed with the task of turning around a single major public company -no investor could rationally given his so-far limited current tenure at the top say:

    this wont end well.

    How much vaster the task is transforming a giant dynamic system of systems such as a nation under premature and constant criticism?
     
  8. garnett

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 5,789

    This is the question that should be answered by Brexiteers, but they're too scared to!

    :D:D:D

    Nothing like having to put your money where your mouth is to show how sincere everyone's being, eh?

    From a Brexiteer standpoint, if Brexit is about anything other than shameful wishes - the chance to be more racist or bigoted - and it's going to be sunlit uplands with no downsides, it should be easy for them to identify a metric and a timescale by which Brexit can be deemed to be a success.

    Ask yourself why, instead, they're insisting, "there's no measure by which I will accept Brexit can be shown to have failed".

    Why this eagerness to reverse the burden of proof?

    From a pro-EU perspective, in terms of when can the "I told you so"s start? Well, every time one of the Brexiteer demagogues has to backtrack on one of the silly promises Brexiteers got mugged off with.

    Those are the so-called benefits of Brexit - that experts, remainers, and commentators said were rubbish - going up in smoke.

    :D:D:D

    For what it's worth, I think the only tangible benefit of Brexit will be if we can make it so clear support for Brexit was misguided, that when we come to the next big national decision, it can be said, "Brexiteers - remember how that went. Best for everyone if you sit this one out."

    :D:D:D
     
  9. sigma

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 17,159

    The issue being that they set the timetable themselves, they drew the red lines themselves, yet the focus seems to be on how the EU are obstructing. There’s a complete lack of planning and rationale.

    It’s (broadly speaking) the same reason why we have Brexit in the first place - blame others for the governments own failings.
     
  10. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 45,943

    They’re more interested in ranting about brexiters being racist and stupid etc...
     
  11. Sheff

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Jun 16, 2008

    Posts: 1,001

    Location: Newton Abbot

    The new chief exec of Britain Inc was the chief exec of London PLC where he failed to deliver on several large projects (garden bridge, floating runway etc.) and was responsible for the purchase of assets that didn't meet safety regulations at the cost of hundreds of thousands of pounds.

    I'm not very impressed with his track record to be honest, and as a shareholder I'd like to know of the vision and strategy he is going to implement to make the business profitable again - but all I hear is soundbites and bluster.
     
  12. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 33,862

    Location: Co Durham

    So the new Farm bill doesnt protect agricultural standards leaving it open for the UK to import sub standard food from other countries post Brexit which wouldnt be legal for UK to have made.

    The promise of CAP payments remaining at the same level has gone out of the window and will be reduced by 5% per annum (25% for those with large claims)

    And interestingly enough there are saying there is going to be the option for any farmer to get the next 7 years payment as a lump sum if they want to retire.....
     
  13. sigma

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 13, 2006

    Posts: 17,159

    ... fake news?
     
  14. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 45,943

    That's already the case in the UK and/or other EU/EEA countries +Switzerland with regards to national regulations being more restrictive than required by the EU. Also it doesn't necessarily imply that we're just going to lower standards across the board re: what can be imported but rather have the flexibility to adjust in particular areas etc... For example you can't cage chickens in Switzerland, Norway has strict rules on slaughter of farmed fish. In France you can force feed a duck or goose and sell the fatty liver as Foie Gras... illegal for farmers to do in the UK but that product can be sold here as we're part of the single market.

    ------------------------------------

    (separate comment)

    Just on the wider topic of regulations - when it comes to divergence of regulations/UK wanting sovereignty over those areas and not to be tied into the EU's what should be of interest is what is actually being allowed as part of any trade deals and/or the UK's intent - not the fact that we'd want to have control over those areas. We are leaving the EU and this idea of just carrying on accepting/being broadly bound to EU regs in different areas is something the UK govt should be pushing back on if we're not going to be in the single market/not going to go for a Norway style deal.

    While the EU can bleat on about how Canada isn't on offer actually... because of some push for dynamic alignment across broad areas (their interpretation of what is required for a "level playing field") and go for their cake and eat it with pushing for some Ukraine type deal despite the UK clearly looking for an FTA (great way to waste time at the start of the talks), complete with some ECJ oversight etc... I don't think they are being reasonable. They cite proximity etc.. yet Canada and the US, Aus and NZ etc.. can strike free trade agreements without all the baggage the EU is demanding. Before I get quoted on this - I'd also point out that the EU wanting to try and hold back or punish the UK etc.. isn't all that surprising, there are some in Brussels and indeed some EU countries who are very keen to take a hard line. Whether that is actually a good thing overall for the member states, or really what they should be doing under their obligations to negotiate a deal is still a bit of an open question.. I don't think think it is tbh.. it seems somewhat counter productive (at least for a fair few members states) especially if the talks do fail as a result. Really the EU ought to exist simply for the benefit of the members not to potentially hold them to ransom/seek to punish in the event that some may want to leave but realistically it is it's own entity with some people at the centre of the projects having interests/goals that don't necessarily align with the interests of member states per se but with some bigger, long term federal project and the UK leaving is seen as a threat to that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  15. Hagar

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 7,703

    Location: Prev. Nkata Cheshire

    Also the long distance transportation and export of live farm animals for slaughter abroad which will likely be outlawed by this government at the end of transitional arrangements with the EU.
     
  16. RxR

    Wise Guy

    Joined: Aug 16, 2019

    Posts: 1,278

    ^^ interesting. And well done if true.
     
  17. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,652

    @Kermit not only has to provide an alternative explanation but also provide reasoning why all the other experts that have zero bias in this game were all in agreement and all wrong. As mentioned earlier, if Kermit can prove that there is a fundamental flaw in economics models used by disparate experts then there is a nobel prize in store for him.


    But really, this is just the usual Breixter approach of dismissing experts that provide evidence against the Brexit utopian dream.
     
  18. D.P.

    Caporegime

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 30,652


    While I think ignorance, xenophobia, racism and sticking a finger up at the "political elite" certainly account for the vast majority of Brexit voters there are some nuances. Superficially, most people are ignorant about most things, and this is especially true of the EU and this has been orchestrated by the right wing media and politicians for decades.

    I know several people who are smart, well educated, well traveled and fairly typical Tory voters in that they don't like paying taxes to support people on benefits as they see that they came from a broken working class family and worked hard to get where they are so automatically assume everyone else can. They read papers like the Torygraph and just assimilate all these negative anti-EU thoughts for years. They have beliefs that the Eu creates massive amounts of additional red-tape, or curbs industries abilities to perform, that their taxes pay for EU bureaucrats that make undemocratic decisions. They happily believe the soundbites, e.g. Eu prevents the sale of bananas without the right curvature or whatever.


    They just have a very shallow understanding of the EU. For example, they know that being part of the EU prevents the UK being able to make bespoke trade deals with the US, and despite hating the US seem to want Britain to have a trade deal with both the US and Eu, not at all understanding why such a position requires massive compomises. They will be appalled to think a trade deal with the US requires chlorinated chicken and hormone fed beef, but are totally clueless to the fact that that kind of restriction is exactly why the EU and US have no strong trade deal. When pointing out such issues they are just adamant that wont happen, or if it does all the food will be clearly labeled and they will only buy British beef totally unaware that one of US's requirements would be no such labeling.

    They are also very much a "Royal Britania, time to rule the waves" type, massively over estimating Britannia standing in the world, not fully comprehending globalization or mistakenly thinking an ultr-nationalist Britain can some how avoid Globalization and still succeed
     
  19. doodah

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 21,501

    Location: London

    Yeah I think some think Britain is a lot more powerful than we are, we're a small island nation with some power/a voice around the world. Going alone will likely make us weaker.
     
  20. Steampunk

    Soldato

    Joined: Jun 1, 2013

    Posts: 7,256

    That voice was (1) because we were a leading member of the EU (2) because of our historical military/political power and reach due to the British Empire. The former we've left due to rich demagogues wanting money and power, the latter has faded away into time as we've given various former colonies their sovereignty (see what I did there?)

    We're now a small fish in a very big pond, and the sharks like the US, EU and China are coming to eat us up, with the full blessing of the Cummings government. Who's got our back? No one.