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Brexit Discussion - The new thread

Discussion in 'Speaker's Corner' started by Feek, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,509

    This is just a gush of fallacy from you - either sincerely or insincerely obtuse.

    So Brexiteers promised a great Brexit. May promised a great Brexit.

    ... And Brexit (surprise surprise) has turned out to be utter ****.

    Some people might be the sort to say, "Meh. I got mugged. I guess I just need to pay over the money, even though the goods are nothing like what was promised."

    But many MPs are actually pretty determined to do right by their constituents. And they're not quitter-types. They agreed to vote for "great Brexit" and they're still fighting your corner, to get that "great Brexit".
     
  2. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,589

    Location: Here and There...

    Simple question is the NI unique enough to be cast adrift as effectively a second country still governed by EU rules and regulations and separated by a boarder in the Irish Sea for the sake of Brexit or would that be enough for you to finally say no Brexit isn’t worth it?
     
  3. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,798

    Location: West Sussex, England

    2016 & 2017 ;) after we've left I wholly expect the EU to be a prominent part of each future GE for a very long time which is why I've said previously that the monolithic parties need to be split into pro and euro skeptic. In fact I think it should be brought into law that no party can exist without a clear position on whether the are one or the other so that the electorate can know whoever they're voting for what their parties broad agenda will be on the EU.
     
  4. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,798

    Location: West Sussex, England

    Google Art.50 and see for yourself what the majority of MP's voted for. As convenient as you'd like it to be for the words of that agreement to be otherwise and what he said or she said, only the words in the agreement matter when you're voting on whether you agree with it or not.
     
  5. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 20,789

    Location: Cornwall

    Seems to work for Switzerland btw.

    I don't think our Parliament is really representative of anyone except the vested interests of themselves and their paymasters.

    I don't look forward to any future Labour or Tory government because it's more of the same - effectively having no representation at all. I'm largely disengaged with politics because it's all a farce and a self-serving one at that.
     
  6. Devilman

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 9, 2004

    Posts: 215

    Which is just another thing that is an internal UK issue, not involving or because of the EU... Leaving the EU will not fix this.. infact it will likely embolden the kind of people who prorogue parliament in an attempt to subvert democratic debate by our sovereign parliament to try even more dirty underhand tactics to force through what they want, regardless of having no mandate for it.
     
  7. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 32,100

    Location: Co Durham

    It doesnt quite work that way if you actually look at the referendum system they have they. The kind of referendum our Brexit vote should have been in the first place and then we wouldnt be having this conversation.
     
  8. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 20,789

    Location: Cornwall

    Or possibly it just works out better for a different section of society.

    Money always wins out in the end in this country. Tell me it isn't so. Is that always best for the people?

    Everybody gets a vote and can use that vote however and why ever they choose. From spoiling the paper to voting for the lulz.

    Argue for a meritocracy if you like. But saying that the politicians should override the people because they know best doesn't strike me as particularly sound. Open to abuse as you say.
     
  9. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,798

    Location: West Sussex, England

    I wouldn't want to see that happen. I think RoI should swallow UK goods / services entering it's territory and reciprocate in NI. I don't believe NI should have to remain in the current EU treaty to do that therefore I'm suggesting NI leaves the EU with the rest of the UK but has the consequence of an Irish Sea border opposed to a land border. I don't believe RoI or the EU wants to impose a land border as it would be pretty difficult to enforce due to the size of that border.
     
  10. Irish_Tom

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 12,189

    They were also promised by the Leave side that it would never come to that because it would be the easiest deal in history; one that could be agreed in an afternoon; one that would give us all of the upsides with no downsides; one that the EU would be begging us to take because they need us more than we need them; that the German car manufacturers would step in because of how many BMWs we buy; etc. etc.

    Did the majority of voters chose to vote Leave knowing all of that was a bunch of lies?

    Did you know all of that was BS but, as you’d already made up your mind, you didn’t care what lies were told to get your preferred outcome?
     
  11. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,589

    Location: Here and There...

    congrats have just described a unicorn! The ROI can’t just swallow uk goods and services from NI unless either:

    1) we agree NI will effectively remain subject to the single market and customs union
    2) ROI establishes a hard boarder between itself and EU to prevent UK goods entering the EU

    You say you don’t want 1 although that is entirely the point of the sea boarder that you then say is an acceptable consequence of brexit and 2 cannot happen as the EU will never have a boarder within the single market that’s the whole point.

    Once again your position makes no sense NI will leave the EU treaty but remain subject to EU rules with no say in the making of them if we establish a boarder in the Irish Sea. The classic brexit in name only you are against but that’s Ok if it’s just for the Irish?
     
  12. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,798

    Location: West Sussex, England

    But leave weren't in the driving seat for negotiations, TM was and she didn't stick to her red lines or leaving at the end of March so of course they wouldn't give a better deal than the WA. It was a botched negotiation in part hampered by parliament not getting behind the fact the voters had decided to leave so for the sake of honouring democracy and the referendum just get behind a united position in dealing with the EU rather than the usual infighting to support individual party politics.
     
  13. Devilman

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 9, 2004

    Posts: 215

    Remind me again how it's democratic to "honor" a result of a referendum that would have been deemed illegal and required a re-run had it actually been a binding referendum rather than an advisory one?
     
  14. thenewoc

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 9, 2012

    Posts: 4,798

    Location: West Sussex, England

    As i've already said, I don't believe that to be the case as I don't see RoI enforcing any land border. I would pull NI out with the rest of the UK and draw up some agreement which I'm not going to hack out with you on a forum for numerous reasons but it wouldn't preclude NI making goods to non EU spec if it wanted to for export to other territories other than the EU although I wouldn't be able to guarantee that some of those goods couldn't be smuggled across a non enforced land border. If we hadn't been in the EU and RoI had chosen to join it would be the same situation. RoI are just going to have to suck it up as far as my opinion goes just as NI will in as much as EU trade entering NI.
     
  15. Nate--IRL--

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 20, 2004

    Posts: 3,477

    Location: Dublin, Ireland

    Crash Out Brexit = Hard Border. It is inescapable.

    Nate
     
  16. Devilman

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 9, 2004

    Posts: 215

    Unfortunately, We're stuck in groundhog day and it just keeps coming back to the same old issues....

    Allow me to re-iterate since it seems some people are hard of hearing (or reasoning)

     
  17. garnett

    Mobster

    Joined: Mar 25, 2008

    Posts: 4,509

    You keep doubling down on the "impervious to fact" thing.

    They voted on the basis of assurances, and now they're voting in accordance with securing the implementation of those assurances.

    The only problem will be if you, and the other Brexit voters... having been conned by the Brexiteers' promises of a fantasy Brexit, then having succumbed to their gaslighting that has you convinced you need to accept the shonky goods you paid full whack for, decide you can't live with the shame of admitting your mistake.

    If you insist on trying to save face by voting for the Brexit Party, out of some sort of Stockholm syndrome thinking - that's when the UK will really get hurt by the manipulation you've been subjected to.

    As long as there are still enough MPs acting in the national interest, you, and the rest of us, might be saved from your mistake.
     
  18. Uther

    Sgarrista

    Joined: Jun 16, 2005

    Posts: 9,460

    As is the absolute mayhem that would follow. CIRA and NIRA are already rehearsing...
     
  19. a1ex2001

    Capodecina

    Joined: Mar 14, 2005

    Posts: 11,589

    Location: Here and There...

    Congratulations on another unicorn!

    NI cannot have an open boarder with ROI and therefore the rest of the EU unless it agrees to follow EU rules otherwise it becomes a back door into the single market which the EU cannot allow as it threatens the integrity of said market. Even Boris seems to accept this yet you cannot and a two tier system within the country would likely be the death of the union.
     
  20. Greebo

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 20, 2005

    Posts: 32,100

    Location: Co Durham

    So are we all agreed that we are sacrificing NI to Eire now as that is what we all knew when we voted leave right? I meant we were told that (but dismissed as project fear)