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Brexit Discussion

Discussion in 'SC Archive' started by FrenchTart, Sep 11, 2016.

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  1. FrenchTart

    Man of Honour

    Joined: May 16, 2005

    Posts: 31,310

    Location: Manchester


    Unfortunately we have seen much Brexit discussion descend into petty squabbles. As such, we have now created a new Brexit discussion thread within Speakers Corner - where all Brexit discussion should occur from now on.

    As you know, in SC we expect that discussion is kept strictly on-topic and especially respectful. Posts that simply antagonise will be removed and suspensions will be issued if required. If you see a problem post be sure to use the RTM feature to let the mod team know.
     
  2. footman

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 21, 2002

    Posts: 3,822

    Excellent
     
  3. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,504

    Location: Cambridge

    It seems the Leave campaign have now reformed as "Change Britain" in order to pressure the PM into implementing their particular flavour of "hard brexit".

    Since the people have already spoken so clearly and decisively, you would have thought all this to be rather unnecessary.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/11/boris-johnson-backs-hardline-brexit-campaign-change-britain-as-p/

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-article-50-theresa-may-john-whittingdale-telegraph-interview-a7237021.html

    Maybe it's time Remain reformed to ensure we have "soft brexit".
     
  4. Amp34

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 25, 2005

    Posts: 28,623

    Location: Canada

    It appears one of the central premises of the leave campaign has also been removed from their "manifesto" - the £350m that was promised to the NHS. It now looks like (before the page was apparently taken down) that any money saved will be going into replacing the money various industries will lose leaving the EU (Farming, regional development etc).

    It also seems they want a hard brexit in the very near future, without any proper thought into what we actually want. The government don't appear to have any idea what they want/will be negotiating on and for (looking at the contradictory speeches and releases from multiple members of the cabinet). That's not worrying in the slightest...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  5. Ricochet J

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jun 29, 2004

    Posts: 12,880

    I never understood this. It wasn't decisive or clear at all. In fact, leave won by a tiny margin. If you call that clearly and decisively then you need to revisit those definitions.

    I was on the remain camp. But both sides spout this was "clear and decisive" when it wasn't.
     
  6. Mr Jack

    Capodecina

    Joined: May 19, 2004

    Posts: 17,104

    Location: Kiel, Germany

    They have. It's called "Open Britain". If I've got my timeline correct, it was formed before the Brexiter's Change Britain. Open Britain's main aims are to keep us in the single market and preserve much of free movement.
     
  7. Stretch

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 14, 2004

    Posts: 11,504

    Location: Cambridge

    I was being facetious.
     
  8. Caged

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 23,199

    So the Leave campaign, who's job it wasn't to actually propose what to do once people voted Leave, have now decided to create a campaign group to push for a particular type of Brexit. Can we assume that should they get their way that they are going to run away from any sort of picture they might have painted in Telegraph columns, and go into hiding behind the "we aren't the government" line?

    Sorry guys, you didn't have the courage of your convictions to stand up in the days/weeks following the result, so you should be flat out ignored on this topic for the rest of your political careers.

    There is no way that we should (again) leave the shots to be called by people who believe this is achievable aim:
    Although I suppose if the wording was "let's retain access to the single market but also maintain absolute control over immigration" then everybody should just look past it, since "let's" is a suggestion and in no way something that the person saying it should be bound to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  9. SteveOBHave

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 31, 2006

    Posts: 6,588

    Location: Sydney Australia

    I think that the unfortunate fact is that it was all part of a sad political game played by people who had no aspirations for the country at all. More aspirations for furthering their political careers. The unfortunate result was motivating a disenfranchised section of society to vote for segregation fuelled by a misunderstanding of what the actual impact would be unbalanced by a misinformation and scaremongering campaign. The concerns of the exit crowd are very legitimate, the perception that any of this is to their benefit I believe is misguided, literally. No-one in government are going to push the button till everyone is sure that they're getting everything they want and have the perceived upper hand... i.e. No time soon. If this process doesn't take 3-4 years to even gain forward movement then I'll be surprised. (disclaimer, I'm a Kiwi in Aus, I'm calling it as I see it and have no investment in this at all.)
     
  10. datalol-jack

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 6,178

    Yep, mentioned it in one of the locked Brexit threads. A Borodino for lobbyists is definitely on the cards, albeit with a prospective compromise between the pro-EU and soft-Brexit armies. The longer the hardliners fumble, the more likely a dire winter retreat is looking for them. There's little appetite for testing the worst of Brexit's effects predicated upon the smash-and-burn, WTO approach advocated by Lawson et al.
     
  11. Mulder

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 10, 2004

    Posts: 3,851

    Location: London

    Lawson and co have no idea what they're talking about and are defaulting to that position for reasons I can't figure out. I've been a heavy critic of the EU and a firm Brexit supporter for a long time but am firmly in favour of a soft Brexit. We need to get out of the political construct of the EU, but we need to stay in the single market, at least for the foreseeable future.

    Iceland and Lichtenstein both have negotiated positions on the four freedoms, and are proper members of the single market. Leaving the political construct, negotiating some compromise on free movement (though frankly it wasn't really an issue for me) whilst remaining in the single market for me is a win/win outcome. I just hope Theresa May comes to see this and doesn't heed to the hard liners.
     
  12. Meridian

    Man of Honour

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 11,851

    Location: Vvardenfell


    One interesting observation was that, if it had been a vote for a strike, it would have failed the proposed new Tory rules on strike ballots.
     
  13. SteveOBHave

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 31, 2006

    Posts: 6,588

    Location: Sydney Australia

    I'd be more concerned on the 'deliverables' for those that have been sold Brexit as being advantageous to lower socio-economic groups. If I were in their position then I'd be demanding not only a clear plan but also clarification on how this is supposed to make their lives better beyond the esoterics of "keep the immigrants out!". It's very much like the "stop the boats" bunch in Aus. Whilst it serves the political posturing in government, the actual 'deliverable' to the every Joe is not remotely measurable IMO.
     
  14. Caged

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 23,199

    If politicians sell those people a bogeyman then they can avoid having to carry responsibility for the situation that said people find themselves in. Rest assured if we ever 'solve' the immigrant 'problem' then another hate target will be drafted in as a reason for why the poor are poor.
     
  15. JeditOjanen

    Mobster

    Joined: Feb 7, 2011

    Posts: 4,374

    The immigrant problem is perennial, though. Things are bad? It's all the fault of the immigrants. We got rid of the immigrants? Things are bad because of the effort we have to expend keeping them from coming back, if they didn't want to come here things would be better. But people abroad say they don't want to come here because Britain is now a pestilential fascist ****hole? NEIN, THIS IS NOT TRUE, BRITANE STRONK!

    And dear God, I wish that was in any way an exaggeration. The Sun today ran a column about how "spiteful Brussels" wanted to impose a travel tax on British people going to Europe as revenge for our proud, brave government saying they didn't want free movement. The Brexit movement seem to truly believe that we should get everything we want and pay no price for it.
     
  16. jas72

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 31, 2006

    Posts: 10,153

    Location: Belgium land of chocolate

    The main problem with your post is that the Government (well the majority of them) didn't actually want to leave.

    You are asking them to tell the people in the lower socio-economic groups how it will be better for them when there is no possible method for that to happen, any exit will be painful and slow growth which means those economic migrants will migrate somewhere else until the work picks up. How this makes those in the lower groups better I fail to see.

    Of course perhaps there are European trade and economics experts at Whitehall that can see some silver lining.

    Given the meager concessions Cameron got as a PM for an EU member I wonder what May can possibly negotiate while taking EU funding from the table.

    Is that a strong negotiating position against the EU who have now some 40 years of trade negotiations behind them?
     
  17. Stazbumpa

    Gangster

    Joined: Sep 9, 2016

    Posts: 123

    Location: A field in Lincolnshire

    I'm the same except I voted to remain. I've never liked the EU as a political entity and the idea of a USE is mildly horrific. That said, the only way you affect change is to work within an organisation and that, coupled with the very real benefits of being in the EU, is why I voted to remain.

    This is perfectly do-able in my opinion, much will depend though on whether or not other EU bureucrats get mardy with us for upsetting their apple cart.

    I understand why people wanted to leave, I live next door to the town that voted by the highest margin to leave and it was all down to immigration. I don't agree totally, but I do understand why they voted that way.
     
  18. datalol-jack

    Soldato

    Joined: Mar 1, 2010

    Posts: 6,178

    A reasonable summary of the key economic points re Brexit for those who don't want to trawl through the old threads: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...xit-economic-plans-suggested-by-a7236816.html.

    To Minford's credit he covered some of the consequences of his preferred approach re tariffs; Lawson just ignores them. And I'm still not sure why Boris, after all that's happened to him, is still hanging on to the latter's bandwagon. I suppose his PM ambition isn't dead yet.
     
  19. Tefal

    Capo Crimine

    Joined: Jun 30, 2007

    Posts: 66,552

    Location: Wales

    hang on on but during the run up to the referendum the remain group where having to argue that while yes the wages of the working class would raise post brexit but that this wouldnt be a good thing for them (they got very fuzzy at this point).
     
  20. Caged

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002

    Posts: 23,199

    Were they?
     
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